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How Officer View Open Carry

dcmdon

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Mar 30, 2009
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469
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Old Saybrook, CT
You mention "butterflies". I've found that the best way to get rid of them is to have as many frequent, innocent encounters with LEOs as possible. Generally, I check the Courant for notifications of sobriety checkpoints. There its possible to practice these encounters in a relatively intimidating, but controlled environment.

At the checkpoint, politely refuse to answer their questions.
They will then ask for license and registration - comply with this, its the law.
They will then ask you to perform a field sobriety check - politely refuse, then offer that if they have reasonable suspicion, you would be happy to consent to a chemical sobriety test as required by law.

At this point, they will either back off, or ask you to pull off to the side. A few minutes later you are on your way, with a stomach full of butterflies.

We've been trained since birth to comply with police officers. Its not comfortable refusing an apparently benign request by a LEO.

Either way, give it a try. It will educate the officers about your 4th and 5th Amendment rights and give you some practice along the way.
 

eye95

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I will not seek out encounters on the street while OCing. That, in one case that I know of, resulted in an arrest.

Butterflies are healthy and do not require avoidance. They are an indication that a possible threat is on our radar. The key is to deal with the potential threat in a useful way.

But that was just a tiny aside and has little to do with the point I was making.
 

eye95

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In your view it may be a detention, but it only matters whether it is a detention in the eyes of the law.

As I pointed out in my story, I have been approached by an officer in a situation that clearly was not a detention.
 

dcmdon

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my point was simply that the learning curve is pretty steep. The first time you encounter an officer while doing nothing wrong you will be pretty nervous.

You may say things you shouldn't.
You may forget to say things you should.

Perfect practice makes perfect when it comes to LEO encounters.

Sobriety checkpoints provide a Zero risk (assuming you are sober) way to develop skills in dealing with LEOs. Thats it.

I've been watching every OC video on Youtube I could fine. I have to admit, that in a very small minority the guy IS looking for trouble.

In one of them an officer is writing someone a traffic ticket and the OCer crosses the street specifically to engage the officer verbally. While he is acting within the law, I can understand the LEO's position that if an armed man specifically crossed the street and approached him while he was issuing a citation, a normal human reaction would be alarm
 

eye95

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Sobriety checkpoints do provide risk if one is unfamiliar with the laws of his State.

Folks, don't take legal advice on a message board. That you were heeding the advice of a message board poster is not a recognized defense.
 

dcmdon

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Sobriety checkpoints do provide risk if one is unfamiliar with the laws of his State.

Folks, don't take legal advice on a message board. That you were heeding the advice of a message board poster is not a recognized defense.

You just told us there are risks. Care to expand so we can discuss/debate them rather than just dismissing my point.

To your credit, I forgot I was not on the Connecticut board. In CT we do not have to submit to Field Sobriety Tests. Your mileage may vary, check with your state AG.
As far as answering the standard 3 questions, this is clear cut, you do not have to engage.
 
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eye95

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I am not dismissing your point. I am heartily criticizing your legal assertion (which is the one that requires support) that sobriety checkpoints carry no risk in being used to develop skills in dealing with LE.

That some people have held up paper to their window and gotten away with it does not mean that everyone can play games with officers at such checkpoints and avoid arrest.

Folks, learn the laws of your State regarding sobriety checkpoints before you try anything apart from compliance. (Before someone jumps on this: I am not advocating compliance, just education.)

Moving on. I don't want to be a party to turning this thread into yet another about checkpoints.
 

dcmdon

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This is not about the laws of the state. The 5th Amendment protects our right to not incriminate ourselves. This has been adjudicated ad nauseum to mean that you do not have to answer an officer's questions.

I was not in any way saying to just hold paper up against the window.
However, you point out a weakness in my posting that I was not explicit enough.

Roll down the window, when the officer asks "How are you tonight sir". You answer "Fantastic, I mean no personal disrespect, but I will not be answering any of your questions".

You are well within the law in every state in the land to do this. You do not have to talk to the police. Period. This is way beyond settled law.
 

dcmdon

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Also, you have said you are challenging my legal assertion, but offer no logical argument or citations.

I don't even know what you are challenging. I'd really like to debate this, since you sound inteligent, but am not sure where you are going with this other than to say, "Don't take legal advice on the internet". (Which I generally agree with).

Don

by the way, you have done an excellent job of forcing me to fix ambiguities. I can be sloppy.
 

M-Taliesin

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Howdy Folks!
Okay, so I have a quandry.
I very much am pro law enforcement. I am also very pro-rights.
I am not an officer of the law. But I am an OC'ing citizen.
So here is my perspective.

The officer, whether having received a call or not, approaches you. Whether you are legally carrying your firearm openly has yet to be determined in his mind. He does not know you from Adam. He only knows, at that point of contact, that you are armed. What happens in those first few seconds is going to determine his attitude to the OC'er. How do you comport yourself? Are you going to be trouble for him? Cooperative? Will you be (in his estimation) a kook or law abiding citizen? He has no way of knowing without first opening contact. And he knows you are armed. Is it reasonable to assume that the officer might be just as nervous about this contact as you might be when approached?

Meanwhile, you are OC'ing in a peaceful manner, not doing anything you believe to be wrong or troublesome. Now along comes an officer that you don't know from Adam. Until the contact actually begins, you are going to profile his attitude, just as certainly as he will profile yours. Is the cop just trying to ascertain that you are not a threat to the community, or looking for a reason to arrest you? His comportment will have an affect on your attitude to him, just as your comportment to him will cause his own attitude to moderate.

I've looked at various threads on this site, seen videos on YouTube, and also visited the police officer website that folks are talking about. I see extreme behavior on both sides, with the majority falling somewhere in the middle. On one hand, the officer who initiates the contact may/may not have RAS. He may simply be inquisitive, or have received a MWAG call. If he ignores a situation regarding an armed individual, and that indivdiual does something criminal, he's on the hook for negligence. If he probes for information, he's possibly infringing on Constitutional rights. If he is right in investigating, he's lauded. If he is wrong, he gets himself or his department sued. When he gets out of that car, he has no clue what he's up against. Sure, criminals are unlikely to carry a firearm openly displayed. We cannot deny there are exceptions to every rule. How is he to know without anything to base his decision on? That's where the attitude of the OC'er comes into play.

So that first impression on both sides of the spectrum is vitally important to whether a stop goes well or badly for either side.

I've seen some officers post about how we seek attention, ergo we open carry. This is an example of a wrong headed notion that some LEOs have. I'd carry concealed, at times, if I had a CCW permit. I don't. Until I get one, concealed carry would be breaking the law. I have no intent of breaking the law, but am also unwilling to be unprotected so I carry in the only manner available to me under law. I carry openly. It ain't about flaunting authority. It ain't about showing off. It ain't about trying to be conspicuous or trying to attract attention. It is about defending my life.

Similarly, I've seen officers spoken about as if they are SS troups or Gestapo types. That ain't no way to win friends or influence people in a positive manner. This is an equally wrong headed notion, and when tarred with the same brush, unfair to the majority of cops trying to do a really tough job.

So there we are. OC'ing as we go about our business, and here comes a cop to check us out. Each side needs to be very careful of the attitude they project. Each needs to be civil to one another, respectful and reasonable. An authoritarian attitude on either side is likely to escalate tension. An officer who is confrontational is no more helpful than a citizen who is himself confrontational. If the cop treats the citizen as an adversary at the outset, he is likely to raise the stakes in an unintended manner. The same goes for the citizen. One sure way to aggrevate the cop is to demonstrate by word of deed a hostile attitude. While you may well be within your rights, the sidewalk or street ain't the place to engage the officer in that particular debate.

A great deal has been said about recording devices, and their employ may be another thorn in the officer's side. Personally, I'd rather call 911 to inform them that I've been approached by someone who appears to be a police officer, but considering we have quite a problem in our area with folks impersonating police officers, I just want a recordd of the encounter. They have it on tape, and it is out of reach of the cop on the street (unlike a recording device in my pocket). It is an official record that can be brought to court by either side. If the officer objects to this tactic, I'd simply explain that I am ensuring this is a legitimate encounter with a duly appointed officer of the law considering impersonators running around. They know this to be true, so they shouldn't bristle as much as my having a recording device. A recording device might seem to them like an attempt to entrap them. Then when I ask whether I am being detained, that becomes a matter of record that can't be lost in the evidence room somewhere.

If I am approached by an LEO (which hasn't happened yet), I'd try to put them at some ease by smiling and greeting them in a friendly manner. His response is going to be what it is, and I'll work with that in as friendly a manner as possible, with an eye toward reasonable conduct on my behalf. Knowing that I have 911 on the phone will cause him to be cautious in his interaction with me. What happens next will depend on him, much less than on me.

I'd like to see an environment where more police officers regard the armed citizen as a responsible individual who is exercising his rights, prepared to defend their own life just as they are, and a partner in helping to mitigate crime. I'd like to hope that most police officers understand that citizens are their partners in establishing peace in their community. Police need citizens to report crimes. Police need citizens to testify in court against criminals. Police need citizens to provide information with regard to specific investigations. And just as certainly, we need them. They are the folks we want around when crime happens. That thin blue line is what can prevent crimes from happening and apprehend criminals who have done crimes against citizens. The citizen isn't their adversary, but partner in keeping the peace. Where an OC'er is carrying his weapon, criminals can see it just as easily as the cops can. It may give them pause to reconsider their options. The armed citizen is a deterrent against crime, and even more so when the bad guys can see they won't get away unchallenged if they decide to commit a crime where the citizen is obviously armed. In this manner, I'd think the police would understand that we help in their cause overall.

Finally, if a crime took place and an officer responded and took a bullet, I am the type of citizen who would defend the officer against an assailtant with the use of my own weapon. I'd back him up and do my best to defend his life. Not because I'm a gun totin' kook, not because I'm a showoff, not because I'm some sort of cowboy yahoo that looks for an opportunity to fire my weapon in reckless fashion... but because it is the right thing to do. One of the reasons to carry is because I am willing to defend others against criminals who would harm them. That would include the "officer down".

But getting back to that first moment of contact. How does the cop know whether I am a criminal or not? What does a criminal look like? What distinguishing characteristics are obvious to the observer? The answer is none. The only way they'll know is to check, and it all begins with demeanor.

On both sides of the spectrum, LEO and OC'er, we need to establish a certain decorum that demonstrates respect, civility and reasonableness. If this can be achieved, we can change those encounters from adversarial or confrontational to friendly and informative. I believe there is benefit to both sides to view one another as a partnership more than the "us vs. them" sort of scenario I've seen prevalant on both sides.

Then again, by my own admission, I haven't experienced anything other than a positive LEO encounter. And it wasn't actually an encounter as all the cop did was respond to my friendly smile and wave of greeting with similar of his own. His attitude may well have reflected my own. I don't know because we never spoke.

When my own encounter arrives, and I'm sure it will in time, I just hope that a reasonable and respectful demeanor on my part will also reflect in the officer's own comportment. Ultimately, I hope that any such confrontation can be made into a cooperative exchange between a law abiding citizen and a law enforcement officer who both share the desire for a peaceful and pleasant exchange.

I will stand by my rights, but not in a manner that is aggressive or combative. That much just doesn't serve us well as OC'ers.

And yes, I recognize that these thoughts are strictly my own opinion, based largely on ignorance owing to never had an encounter yet with an LEO. Your own mileage may vary, just as attitudes on both sides. If each side can dispense with unnessary adversarial comportment, perhaps we may discover that more cops are with us than against us. And maybe the cops will figure out that more OC'ers are with them than opposed to their very tough job.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
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May 21, 2006
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Valhalla
Way too many words used to attempt to resolve the issue. Most people will not read it all because of the length.

I prefer the K.I.S.S. method, so let me simplify.

In most instances the question of MWAG, OCer etc. can be resolved w/o contact with the man. Observe the conduct of the person(s) in question - the gun is NOT the question/problem/consideration in a majority of such interactions - conduct is.

If it (the gun) is the sole basis for such contact it approaches at the least an unnecessary interruption, at the worst an unlawful detainment.
 

DKSuddeth

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
833
Location
Bedford, Texas, USA
depending on your state, carrying a firearm is not a crime. If you haven't committed a crime, are committing a crime, or are about to commit a crime (carrying doesn't count), then there should be no interaction at all. It's not the LEOs job to check everyones papers.
 

dcmdon

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Old Saybrook, CT
It isn't, but until some cop loses his job over detaining someone or a OCer is awarded a 7 figure judgement, it will continue.
 

xd shooter

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Oct 31, 2010
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usa
If he ignores a situation regarding an armed individual, and that indivdiual does something criminal, he's on the hook for negligence.

I believe this to be incorrect, and would ask for a cite or a case where this may have occurred.

SCOTUS has ruled that the Police have NO responsibility to "protect and to serve", so how can they be on the hook for negligence?
 

OldCurlyWolf

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I believe this to be incorrect, and would ask for a cite or a case where this may have occurred.

SCOTUS has ruled that the Police have NO responsibility to "protect and to serve", so how can they be on the hook for negligence?

Don't forget departmental action and/or civil action. Those are both open in such instances.
 

papa bear

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Jul 25, 2010
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mayberry, nc
the question was asked "how can an LEO tell if you are a criminal or not?" easy, if i am not doing anything wrong, or there is no evidence i have done anything wrong then....

and also, i am not playing any "games" when i arm myself, and also i want my civil rights to be respected. one of the reasons i OC is i want others to know that i am armed and i truly believe it is a deterrent to ones that or up to no good. you would think a LEO would be against CCH and would want to know who was armed or not
which brings me to this (since this OP is about cops and OC)

<snip>One city cop, who requested anonymity, said that he was unaware carrying a firearm openly within the city limits was legal. “To see somebody carrying a gun in full view, it’s kind of, I would say, scary in a big city,” the officer says. But as Fiorino sat on a bench at Dilworth Plaza talking about his cause, very few eyes glanced his way. Passers-by didn’t even seem to notice him—even though his gun was out in the open on his left hip. “Nobody’s screaming or running around,” Fiorino says.
Still, the officer maintains that the sight of a gun on someone without a badge could cause a problem. “When people see you doing that, people assume you’re a police officer,” the cop says, adding that even off-duty, most city cops carry concealed. “I think all guns should be concealed.” <snip>

 

dcmdon

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An officer justifying a stop when you are open carrying as described above would be like an officer stopping every car he sees so that he can confirm that the driver's license isn't revoked.

To me its just that simple. (and if you know my posts, you know I can be pretty long winded)
 

dcmdon

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OK, very little risk. I guess nothing is zero risk.

But if your goal is to gain experience being in uncomfortable situations with LEOs it can be very close to zero risk. You just need to de-escalate when you think its at a bad turning point.

Besides, am I on the women's home journal web site or opencarry.org?
This entire site is dedicated to supporting people doing something that is risky as far as LEOs go. If you are willing to take on the risk of OCing, then refusing to chat with a cop at a sobriety ckpoint is nothing.

I guess it has a lot to do with what state you are in. Being in the Northeast, we are a lot more questioning of police than many other states. All cops have recorders in the car that they aren't supposed to be able to access. At sobriety checkpoints there are a lot of cops around. I've never had a CT trooper get belligerent, its always been local cops.

Finally, if you are going to engage in any kind of legal civil disobedience, whether its OCing or seeking out sobriety checkpoints you are an absolute fool if you don't do it with some kind of audio and/or video recorder.

If you have an iphone or android device you can download Qik and use it as a video recorder. Qik immediately stores whatever you record up in the cloud, so even if your phone is destroyed or "lost" you still have the video up on the web.

So while zero risk may not be correct, it is much less risky than open carrying and still represents a good way to get practice dealing with LEOs. If you are still concerned about risk, I'd choose to not OC while refusing to cooperate with cops at a checkpoint.
 

dcmdon

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Old Saybrook, CT
It also goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that you should be 100% legal if you invite this extra scrutiny upon yourself. license, registration, insurance all need to be 100% good to go.
 
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