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Simpsonville Mall violation

poetdante

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2014
Messages
446
Location
Louisville, KY
The outlet mall in Simpsonville has signs posted at the entrance to their parking lots prohibiting firearms. This is in violation of KRS 237.106 and 237.110(17) (although I forgot to mention the latter to them in the below email)

To Whomever It May Concern:

I recently visited the outlet mall in Simpsonville, KY and noticed the following signs. Specifically I am referring to the sign with a picture of a handgun with a cross-through circle over it. I presume the implication is that firearms are not permitted on the premises.

If that is the case, I would like to request that you remove the sign. In Kentucky it is illegal for any business to prohibit the possession and storage of firearms in a vehicle on the premises, except for vehicles owned by the business. As such, the sign is in direct violation of state law. The pertinent statute is KRS 237.106. I would also point out that the statute makes businesses who engage in such unlawful practice civilly liable in some circumstances for their actions regarding prohibiting firearms in such a manner.

Please feel free to have your legal counsel contact me if they have any further questions. If I do not hear back from your company or a representative, at some point, I will have to pursue other means of ensuring your company is in compliance with the state law.



Also, I noticed something when re-reading 237.110(17). It specifically allows employers/businesses from prohibiting concealed carry. I don't see any statute, anywhere, that says a business can prohibit firearms universally, i.e. open carry, on their property.

KRS 237.106
(1) No person, including but not limited to an employer, who is the owner, lessee, or occupant of real property shall prohibit any person who is legally entitled to possess a firearm from possessing a firearm, part of a firearm, ammunition, or ammunition component in a vehicle on the property.
(2) A person, including but not limited to an employer, who owns, leases, or otherwise occupies real property may prevent a person who is prohibited by state or federal law from possessing a firearm or ammunition from possessing a firearm or ammunition on the property.
(3) A firearm may be removed from the vehicle or handled in the case of self-defense, defense of another, defense of property, or as authorized by the
owner, lessee, or occupant of the property.
(4) An employer that fires, disciplines, demotes, or otherwise punishes an employee who is lawfully exercising a right guaranteed by this section and who
is engaging in conduct in compliance with this statute shall be liable in civil damages. An employee may seek and the court shall grant an injunction
against an employer who is violating the provisions of this section when it is found that the employee is in compliance with the provisions of this section.
(5) The provisions of this section shall not apply to any real property:
(a) Owned, leased, or occupied by the United States government, upon
which the possession or carrying of firearms is prohibited or controlled;
(b) Of a detention facility as defined in KRS 520.010; or
(c) Where a section of the Kentucky Revised Statutes specifically prohibits
possession or carrying of firearms on the property.

So there we have that an employer/business owner can't prohibit firearms in a vehicle, generally.


What about KRS 237.110 - which deals with concealed carry

(17) The owner, business or commercial lessee, or manager of a private business enterprise, day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894 or certified or licensed family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, or a health-care facility licensed under KRS Chapter 216B, except facilities renting or leasing housing, may prohibit persons holding concealed deadly weapon licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding concealed deadly weapons licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer or business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying concealed weapons is prohibited. Possession of weapons, or ammunition, or both in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the weapons, or ammunition, or both are not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. A private but not a public employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employer, but may not prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employee, except that the Justice and Public Safety Cabinet may prohibit an employee from carrying any weapons, or ammunition, or both other than the weapons, or ammunition, or both issued or authorized to be used by the employee of the cabinet, in a vehicle while transporting persons under the employee's supervision or jurisdiction. Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in this subsection by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer.

Now as you can see there that refers only to concealed carry. And as the Kentucky Constitution says, the legislature has regulatory power only on concealed carry. I don't see anything about open carry.

I thought I had read and saved all of the Kentucky statutes even remotely related to firearms, but maybe I missed some? Could anyone chime in on what gives private businesses the right to prohibit openly carried firearms on their premises?
 

Ghost1958

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2015
Messages
1,133
Location
Kentucky
The outlet mall in Simpsonville has signs posted at the entrance to their parking lots prohibiting firearms. This is in violation of KRS 237.106 and 237.110(17) (although I forgot to mention the latter to them in the below email)

To Whomever It May Concern:

I recently visited the outlet mall in Simpsonville, KY and noticed the following signs. Specifically I am referring to the sign with a picture of a handgun with a cross-through circle over it. I presume the implication is that firearms are not permitted on the premises.

If that is the case, I would like to request that you remove the sign. In Kentucky it is illegal for any business to prohibit the possession and storage of firearms in a vehicle on the premises, except for vehicles owned by the business. As such, the sign is in direct violation of state law. The pertinent statute is KRS 237.106. I would also point out that the statute makes businesses who engage in such unlawful practice civilly liable in some circumstances for their actions regarding prohibiting firearms in such a manner.

Please feel free to have your legal counsel contact me if they have any further questions. If I do not hear back from your company or a representative, at some point, I will have to pursue other means of ensuring your company is in compliance with the state law.



Also, I noticed something when re-reading 237.110(17). It specifically allows employers/businesses from prohibiting concealed carry. I don't see any statute, anywhere, that says a business can prohibit firearms universally, i.e. open carry, on their property.

KRS 237.106
(1) No person, including but not limited to an employer, who is the owner, lessee, or occupant of real property shall prohibit any person who is legally entitled to possess a firearm from possessing a firearm, part of a firearm, ammunition, or ammunition component in a vehicle on the property.
(2) A person, including but not limited to an employer, who owns, leases, or otherwise occupies real property may prevent a person who is prohibited by state or federal law from possessing a firearm or ammunition from possessing a firearm or ammunition on the property.
(3) A firearm may be removed from the vehicle or handled in the case of self-defense, defense of another, defense of property, or as authorized by the
owner, lessee, or occupant of the property.
(4) An employer that fires, disciplines, demotes, or otherwise punishes an employee who is lawfully exercising a right guaranteed by this section and who
is engaging in conduct in compliance with this statute shall be liable in civil damages. An employee may seek and the court shall grant an injunction
against an employer who is violating the provisions of this section when it is found that the employee is in compliance with the provisions of this section.
(5) The provisions of this section shall not apply to any real property:
(a) Owned, leased, or occupied by the United States government, upon
which the possession or carrying of firearms is prohibited or controlled;
(b) Of a detention facility as defined in KRS 520.010; or
(c) Where a section of the Kentucky Revised Statutes specifically prohibits
possession or carrying of firearms on the property.

So there we have that an employer/business owner can't prohibit firearms in a vehicle, generally.


What about KRS 237.110 - which deals with concealed carry

(17) The owner, business or commercial lessee, or manager of a private business enterprise, day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894 or certified or licensed family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, or a health-care facility licensed under KRS Chapter 216B, except facilities renting or leasing housing, may prohibit persons holding concealed deadly weapon licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding concealed deadly weapons licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer or business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying concealed weapons is prohibited. Possession of weapons, or ammunition, or both in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the weapons, or ammunition, or both are not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. A private but not a public employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employer, but may not prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employee, except that the Justice and Public Safety Cabinet may prohibit an employee from carrying any weapons, or ammunition, or both other than the weapons, or ammunition, or both issued or authorized to be used by the employee of the cabinet, in a vehicle while transporting persons under the employee's supervision or jurisdiction. Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in this subsection by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer.

Now as you can see there that refers only to concealed carry. And as the Kentucky Constitution says, the legislature has regulatory power only on concealed carry. I don't see anything about open carry.

I thought I had read and saved all of the Kentucky statutes even remotely related to firearms, but maybe I missed some? Could anyone chime in on what gives private businesses the right to prohibit openly carried firearms on their premises?

Nothing does. But they do have the right to tell one to leave for pretty much no reason at at,all. Gun or no gun.

But you are correct that ky state gun regulations don't apply to OC.
 

gutshot II

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Messages
707
Location
Central Ky.
Not really much to follow here. Every mall in Ky., at least everyone that I have ever seen, is posted. The authority of a "private business enterprise" to post property against concealed weapons contained in KRS 237.110(17) references the PREMISES, unlike the authority of a city and county in KRS 237.115 which is limited to BUILDINGS. The mall is certainly authorized to prohibit concealed weapons on all property that they own, including the parking lot. They can NOT prohibit guns inside the vehicle and they have not attempted to do so, as far as I can see. As far as OC is concerned, any private property owner is allowed to make the rules for the conduct of visitors to their property. I will concede that the placement of the signs is probably an attempt to intimidate the uneducated. Ignorance is always expensive. It can cost you money, jobs, friends and rights. I have seen signs like this near the entrance to the local Community College and probably 100 yards from the nearest building. They only mean that a firearm can't be carried around on the grounds of the college. That is completely in compliance with the laws of Ky.

I don't know why this causes such consternation. Surely, no one leaves their firearms openly visible in their unoccupied car and there is no place that I have heard about that is searching cars. The only way that I can think of that your gun would be discovered is if you were forced to use it. In that situation, who would care if the mall's owners ordered you off the property? Would you want to continue your shopping trip after being involved in an armed confrontation?
 
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