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The Meaning of Constitution and Law...

HLB

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At the point that a document was signed by the creators that meaning became constitution or law. Later, many others may analyze it and assign their conclusions a name, such as originalist or textualist (which now carry more meaning than the simple english word from which the name stems). At that point we are one step removed from the original meaning. I don't mind understanding other's opinions but am careful not to use a broad meaning assigned by others as it may change over time and may be too broad to function as a stable reference. Of course, certain knowledge may have changed over time. An original meaning may have to be altered when we find that the earth is spherical rather than flat. Most 2nd Amendment (or state constitution equivalent) meaning is still the same as before. Should new technology change the function of the 2nd Amendment then the nation should amend the Constitution to reflect their concerns. Until then, the meaning remains the same.

It would be interesting to reverse today's catch phrases used to infringe on that original meaning in the 2nd Amendment and equivalent. For instance, some of the argument around restrictions on the bearing of arms lies in the use of the term "public place". Various government sectors have decided that they are not a public place and so the people can not carry their weapon there. Well, if the people have a need to be in that place, then their carrying of a weapon would be protected by the 2nd Amendment or equivalent. For instance, my county board of supervisors will most likely object to me carrying my weapon in their monthly public meeting room. They would say that their meeting room is not a public place. But I have a need to be there to comment on the ever increasing tax rate that I must pay, thus my weapon is protected by Article 3, Section 12 of the Mississippi Constitution or the 2nd Amendment delivered through the 14th Amendment Federally. Another taboo is the public school. If one needs to talk to a teacher or attend a school meeting concerning their children, then the weapon is protected by the 2nd Amendment, etcetera. So who created the "public place" phrase and why? Likely, since it is not included in the Constitution, it was created as a way to address a perceived need. That need might address the horror of seeing a weapon in a modern school where we have had many shootings. Once these tragedies get the public attention, the Constitution and Law and the words and meanings they were created from, go out the window. This misuse of Constitution and Law results because our society chooses to change the meaning of those documents rather than the words. Ask any opponent of the 2nd Amendment what they think it really says. They will answer you with words other than those that the 2nd Amendment contains. Then ask them why the don't just raise the support required to amend the Constitution and put their words in it. The answer will be that they can not raise that support. Thus the intent of the creators has succeeded in that the meaning remains as it was written until an substantial effort is made to change it. The only way that this intent can fail is if we people allow the meaning to be changed without the words. So here we are today where liberal judges do just that and we allow them.

HLB
 

HLB

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Sometimes people talk too much. The readings on subtle differences between originalism and textualism and benefits to society go too far unless one enjoys talking about it rather than achieving results.

What would be the appropriate action in Scott County, Mississippi where the court house now has a no-weapons sign posted?
1) Five people known by deputies to be armed (openly) carrying their weapons enter the building in a non-aggressive manner and ask the deputies to take the signs down.
or
2) People spending a lot of money and time hiring a lawyer and thousands of words being written and spoken in court and a decision ultimately being rendered that may or may not support the applicable Constitution and Law and may or may not be obeyed by local authorities.

Option 2 has actually already occurred in this case since the Mississippi Supreme Court ruled on the concealed version of this matter in another county in a positive way and the Attorney General has opined against prohibition of weapons carry in similar cases and Scott County choose to ignore those rulings and opinions.

The desired result to be achieved here would be to be able to carry your weapon freely without hindrance in a Constitutional and Lawful manner in to the Scott County and all other Mississippi courthouses. If people keep going back and talking about it without following up with physical action then the desired result will never be achieved because there is no consequence for those who keep fouling the waters and they like to foul the waters.

I say option (1). So I am one person. Where are the other four?

HLB
 

solus

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Sometimes people talk too much. The readings on subtle differences between originalism and textualism and benefits to society go too far unless one enjoys talking about it rather than achieving results.

What would be the appropriate action in Scott County, Mississippi where the court house now has a no-weapons sign posted?
1) Five people known by deputies to be armed (openly) carrying their weapons enter the building in a non-aggressive manner and ask the deputies to take the signs down.
or
2) People spending a lot of money and time hiring a lawyer and thousands of words being written and spoken in court and a decision ultimately being rendered that may or may not support the applicable Constitution and Law and may or may not be obeyed by local authorities.

Option 2 has actually already occurred in this case since the Mississippi Supreme Court ruled on the concealed version of this matter in another county in a positive way and the Attorney General has opined against prohibition of weapons carry in similar cases and Scott County choose to ignore those rulings and opinions.

The desired result to be achieved here would be to be able to carry your weapon freely without hindrance in a Constitutional and Lawful manner in to the Scott County and all other Mississippi courthouses. If people keep going back and talking about it without following up with physical action then the desired result will never be achieved because there is no consequence for those who keep fouling the waters and they like to foul the waters.

I say option (1). So I am one person. Where are the other four?

HLB
“...follow up with PHYSICAL action...”

Are you advocating insurrection?
 

HLB

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Joined
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Messages
38
Insurrection, "a violent uprising against an authority or government".
Constitutional and Lawful physical action is not and insurrection, it is self defense.
HLB
 

solus

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Insurrection, "a violent uprising against an authority or government".
Constitutional and Lawful physical action is not and insurrection, it is self defense.
HLB
SD my patootie...

Potato 🥔 ....tomato 🍅

M/W dictionary...
an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

Blacks Law,
A rebellion, or rising of citizens or subjects in resistance to their government.

Wiki
Rebellion, uprising, or insurrection is a refusal of obedience or order.[1] It refers to the open resistance against the orders of an established authority.

A rebellion originates from a sentiment of indignation and disapproval of a situation and then manifests itself by the refusal to submit or to obey the authority responsible for this situation. Rebellion can be individual or collective, peaceful (civil disobedience, civil resistance, and nonviolent resistance) or violent (terrorism, sabotage and guerrilla warfare.)

In political terms, rebellion and revolt are often distinguished by their different aims. If rebellion generally seeks to evade and/or gain concessions from an oppressive power, a revolt seeks to overthrow and destroy that power, as well as its accompanying laws. The goal of rebellion is resistance while a revolt seeks a revolution.[citation needed] As power shifts relative to the external adversary, or power shifts within a mixed coalition, or positions harden or soften on either side, an insurrection may seesaw between the two forms.


Use your word to mean what they are supposed to mean not what your momma said she thought they might of meant!
 

OC for ME

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... 1) Five people known by deputies to be armed (openly) carrying their weapons enter the building in a non-aggressive manner and ask the deputies to take the signs down. ...
While this option would seem to be legal based on your comments, cops are not as invested in our 2A as they are their livelihood...their paycheck. Court precedent is on their side as far as their acts that deprive you of your rights. While you may prevail in the long run, if option one is your first action, it will be expensive in time and money as you correctly state in option two if the cops do not hold the same viewpoint as you on our individual liberties.

Option two, if implemented vigorously, is always the best first choice. If government agents are in violation of the law then the courts will recommend that the violators modify their behaviors to become compliant with the law, and in some cases...or else!

Cops do not post the signs and they will not be the ones who decide to remove the signs...they are just doing their job...see the paycheck part above. Research QI.

Nobody said the restoration of our individual liberties would be easy...or quick.

Remember, OCDO advocates that we to use the courts or our vote to restore our individual liberties.

Good luck.
 
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Ghost1958

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While this option would seem to be legal based on your comments, cops are not as invested in our 2A as they are their livelihood...their paycheck. Court precedent is on their side as far as their acts that deprive you of your rights. While you may prevail in the long run, if option one is your first action, it will be expensive in time and money as you correctly state in option two if the cops do not hold the same viewpoint as you on our individual liberties.

Option two, if implemented vigorously, is always the best first choice. If government agents are in violation of the law then the courts will recommend that the violators modify their behaviors to become compliant with the law, and in some cases...or else!

Cops do not post the signs and they will not be the ones who decide to remove the signs...they are just doing their job...see the paycheck part above. Research QI.

Nobody said the restoration of our individual liberties would be easy...or quick.

Remember, OCDO advocates that we to use the courts or our vote to restore our individual liberties.

Good luck.
And when the vote or court's fail, repeatedly, to restore the RTKABA , or the 4a, or 1a. for a couple of centuries but only get worse a bit at a time, what then?
 
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OC for ME

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I disagree that the courts and our votes have not restored our individual liberties. And, given the reports posted on this site, the evidence contradicts your claim that our vote and our efforts in the courts have failed.

In Missouri we went from CC is unlawful to CC without a permit...this took several years of course. OC has never been regulated in Missouri, except for the unconstitutional RSMo 21.750.3 provision that allows a political subdivision to ban OC without a permit...we are working on this too. College carry, CC most likely, is close to becoming lawful.

Cops in Missouri are more likely to not initiate contact with a OCer due only to the visibility of a properly holstered handgun...they know the law, and more importantly they know the consequences for not following the law.

When the citizenry votes into office individuals who respect individual liberty and our constitutional protections individual liberty is restored...just not as quickly as some would like...
 

Ghost1958

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I disagree that the courts and our votes have not restored our individual liberties. And, given the reports posted on this site, the evidence contradicts your claim that our vote and our efforts in the courts have failed.

In Missouri we went from CC is unlawful to CC without a permit...this took several years of course. OC has never been regulated in Missouri, except for the unconstitutional RSMo 21.750.3 provision that allows a political subdivision to ban OC without a permit...we are working on this too. College carry, CC most likely, is close to becoming lawful.

Cops in Missouri are more likely to not initiate contact with a OCer due only to the visibility of a properly holstered handgun...they know the law, and more importantly they know the consequences for not following the law.

When the citizenry votes into office individuals who respect individual liberty and our constitutional protections individual liberty is restored...just not as quickly as some would like...
I disagree. The court's and vote have not returned the RTKABA.

There is no RTKABA in this nation and had not been since the first gun regulation.

We have varying degrees of gov permission on how and when and what we may own and posses.
 

HLB

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Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
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For 22 years now I have been actively trying to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights. There have been numerous and costly encounters with those who try to keep me from doing that. They have mounted a significant intrusion in to my life and I hold them responsible for that cost. I did not start the fight, and it is a fight. I wear my weapon openly, in part, to let them know that I mean business. If they stand down, then I will remember the sad past but we will have no future problem. If they continue to attack me then I will fight back. If they use physical force then I will do so also. I did not start this fight.
HLB
 

OC for ME

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I disagree. The court's and vote have not returned the RTKABA.

There is no RTKABA in this nation and had not been since the first gun regulation.

We have varying degrees of gov permission on how and when and what we may own and posses.
In Missouri there has been, these past 15 years or so, continuing efforts to restore our right to peaceably carry a firearm, as we see fit, everywhere we have a right to be if we choose to do so. Our state constitution gives the legislature to authority to regulate CC, not OC. We continue to whittle away at the prohibited places for those who CC. Cops in Missouri know the laws and they know their boundaries regarding lawful carry by Missouri citizens. Those cops who choose to enforce their opinions have found that their opinions can cost them dearly. This is the singular achievement these past 15 years...

The pace is slow and I too would like to see restoration happen more quickly...however, this is the system we must deal with...
 
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Ghost1958

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In Missouri there has been, these past 15 years or so, continuing efforts to restore our right to peaceably carry a firearm, as we see fit, everywhere we have a right to be if we choose to do so. Our state constitution gives the legislature to authority to regulate CC, not OC. We continue to whittle away at the prohibited places for those who CC. Cops in Missouri know the laws and they know their boundaries regarding lawful carry by Missouri citizens. Those cops who choose to enforce their opinions have found that their opinions can cost them dearly. This is the singular achievement these past 15 years...

The pace is slow and I too would like to see restoration happen more quickly...however, this is the system we must deal with...
Minor things.

When you and I have unfettered access to our weapon of choice , full auto, etc, and NO regulation of when or where we can carry our weapons of choice THEN and only then will we have the RTKABA restored.

Think voting is going to accomplish that?
 

FreedomVA

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In Missouri there has been, these past 15 years or so, continuing efforts to restore our right to peaceably carry a firearm, as we see fit, everywhere we have a right to be if we choose to do so. Our state constitution gives the legislature to authority to regulate CC, not OC. We continue to whittle away at the prohibited places for those who CC. Cops in Missouri know the laws and they know their boundaries regarding lawful carry by Missouri citizens. Those cops who choose to enforce their opinions have found that their opinions can cost them dearly. This is the singular achievement these past 15 years...

The pace is slow and I too would like to see restoration happen more quickly...however, this is the system we must deal with...
But how much did it costs us in $$$ and time to let them know their opinions are in violation, which it shouldn't be violated in the first place?

Why are we paying for their salaries, and our resources are used against us. It make me feel, like i'm being RIPPED OFF and there's nothing i can do about it without spending more time and $$$ and even then i might lose my RTBKA if i don't kiss their azz.

All the States have and will caved in because of Federal $$$$ (taxpayers) incentives.
 
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solus

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For 22 years now I have been actively trying to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights. There have been numerous and costly encounters with those who try to keep me from doing that. They have mounted a significant intrusion in to my life and I hold them responsible for that cost. I did not start the fight, and it is a fight. I wear my weapon openly, in part, to let them know that I mean business. If they stand down, then I will remember the sad past but we will have no future problem. If they continue to attack me then I will fight back. If they use physical force then I will do so also. I did not start this fight.
HLB
Premeditation stated on a public forum, usable by prosecutors et al.

Ya know HLB when ya wear the chip on your shoulder...did it ever occur to you in hindsight that one encounter eh anybody could be anybody’s fault but NUMEROUS encounters from the “infamous” THEY should lend credence that perhaps, just perhaps, THEY might not be totally responsible for the encounters you are seeking martyrdom over!

But espoused premeditated violence against LE might sorely affect your expectations during/after your next encounter with THEM.
 
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JTHunter2

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OC is right about OC in MO - but - there has been a move afoot lately, not just in MO but in most "donkey-controlled" major metropolitan areas, to let those cities set their own rules. One of the leaders in this move is that moron from Mo, William Lacey Clay. If allowed, this would create an idiotic patchwork of different laws where you're legal on one side of the stree but not the other. There will be a LOT of "collateral damage" if this boondoggle is allowed to exist.
 

OC for ME

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St Louis and Kansas City will advocate for federal intervention and will not receive the desired intervention...Heller does mean something...even though SCOTUS ignores their own precedent...
 
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