Thors_Mitersaw
Regular Member
imported post
SaltH2OHokie wrote:
oh. duh. haha.
SaltH2OHokie wrote:
oh. duh. haha.
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
Virginia Requirement To Provide ID To Police?
- Thread starter -C4-
- Start date
mpg9999
Regular Member
imported post
I was thinking about this issue some more today. What if your are in possesion or consuming an age restricted item, ie tabaco or alcohol. If I'm walking down the street smoking a ciggarette, can I be made to show ID? What if I'm at party, drinking a beer, and the police show up. Again, am I required to show ID?
I was thinking about this issue some more today. What if your are in possesion or consuming an age restricted item, ie tabaco or alcohol. If I'm walking down the street smoking a ciggarette, can I be made to show ID? What if I'm at party, drinking a beer, and the police show up. Again, am I required to show ID?
imported post
mpg9999 wrote:
You may very well have just turned 18 and are legal to smoke... but if you look younger... the officer will have RS to think you are committing a criminal offense.
In that case you do not get to walk away.
You cannot be forced to say anything but in the case of age based laws.... all you have to do is show you are old enough.
You could refuse, be arrested, and tossed in jail until you show your ID.Thenhave the case dismissed in court. Or you can prove it and be on your way.
mpg9999 wrote:
If it appears that you are committing a crime..... you will need to provide your identity while the cop investigates to be sure you are old enough.
You may very well have just turned 18 and are legal to smoke... but if you look younger... the officer will have RS to think you are committing a criminal offense.
In that case you do not get to walk away.
You cannot be forced to say anything but in the case of age based laws.... all you have to do is show you are old enough.
You could refuse, be arrested, and tossed in jail until you show your ID.Thenhave the case dismissed in court. Or you can prove it and be on your way.
deepdiver
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Yet another reason our growing list of status offenses is repugnant.
EDIT: Note LEO229, that is not a gripe about LEO enforcement of status offenses but rather a grip about legislation/legislators created such status offense laws.
Yet another reason our growing list of status offenses is repugnant.
EDIT: Note LEO229, that is not a gripe about LEO enforcement of status offenses but rather a grip about legislation/legislators created such status offense laws.
Thundar
Regular Member
imported post
I found this in the Norfolk Code when doing research to prepare for Harborfest:
Link Here: http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?pid=10121&sid=46
Sec. 29-73.1. Suspects to identify themselves.
(a)Any law enforcement officer may detain any person whom the officer encounters under circumstances creating a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime, and require the person to identify himself. Any person so detained shall identify himself by giving his full legal name, but may not be compelled to answer any other inquiry of any law enforcement officer.
(b)A person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a class 3 misdemeanor.
(Ord. No. 41,880, § 1, 6-14-05)
I found this in the Norfolk Code when doing research to prepare for Harborfest:
Link Here: http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?pid=10121&sid=46
Sec. 29-73.1. Suspects to identify themselves.
(a)Any law enforcement officer may detain any person whom the officer encounters under circumstances creating a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime, and require the person to identify himself. Any person so detained shall identify himself by giving his full legal name, but may not be compelled to answer any other inquiry of any law enforcement officer.
(b)A person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a class 3 misdemeanor.
(Ord. No. 41,880, § 1, 6-14-05)
Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
Thundar wrote:
This ordinance would appear to be Hiibel compliant. However, Hiibel sais that those with a legitamate 5th Amendment interest in protecting her identity could refuse.
In any event, I never understood Hiibel because how would the citizen know if the officer had the suspicion required?
Thundar wrote:
This ordinance would appear to be Hiibel compliant. However, Hiibel sais that those with a legitamate 5th Amendment interest in protecting her identity could refuse.
In any event, I never understood Hiibel because how would the citizen know if the officer had the suspicion required?
Nelson_Muntz
Campaign Veteran
imported post
And as previously established, OC is not RAS. Correct?
Thundar
Regular Member
imported post
Nelson_Muntz wrote:
I, for one, will try to make a VCDL name tagIt would have the VCDL logo and say something like: Hello, my name is XXXXX, Guns save lives.
Nelson_Muntz wrote:
Yes, I agree. Problem is, how do you know what the suspicion is? It might not be related to the open carry. IfNorfolk P.D.indicates that the suspicion is due solely to the lawful open carry of a firearm, then they are wrong. If they indicate some other reason in front of the judge, then you might be found guilty in General District Court. I don't like it, but I think that it is important for those that plan to open carry at Harborfest to know what laws/tools the Norfolk P.D. has.
I, for one, will try to make a VCDL name tagIt would have the VCDL logo and say something like: Hello, my name is XXXXX, Guns save lives.
Nelson_Muntz
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Good point Thundar. I guess if they ask you for ID while you are open carrying then you simply have to ask back "what am I suspected of?" Their response should then tell you whether you should provide ID. If all they can say is "your carrying a weapon" then that statute should not apply. If they then arrest you, I guess we have Harbor Fest II to discuss here.
I'd like to get a VCDL logo ballcap. Don't see any on their storepage though.
Good point Thundar. I guess if they ask you for ID while you are open carrying then you simply have to ask back "what am I suspected of?" Their response should then tell you whether you should provide ID. If all they can say is "your carrying a weapon" then that statute should not apply. If they then arrest you, I guess we have Harbor Fest II to discuss here.
I'd like to get a VCDL logo ballcap. Don't see any on their storepage though.
longwatch
Founder's Club Member - Moderator
imported post
The Chapeau de Assclown? Gunshow booths are the best place to obtain them.
The Chapeau de Assclown
? Gunshow booths are the best place to obtain them.
Bubba Ron
Regular Member
imported post
Nelson_Muntz wrote:
Nelson_Muntz wrote:
Go to any gun show in Virginia - they will have the VCDL ballcaps at the VCDL table - they are $12 each.
Nelson_Muntz
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Thanks guys. Didn't really look for them when I was there last. Of course, I owe it to LW and his assclown friends for hitting a couple blips on the radar in the area that brought you all to my attention.
Cheers :exclaim:
Thanks guys. Didn't really look for them when I was there last. Of course, I owe it to LW and his assclown friends for hitting a couple blips on the radar in the area that brought you all to my attention.
Cheers :exclaim:
danbus
Regular Member
imported post
LEO 229 wrote:
Thats what happened to me in Hampton. One LEO said that I could be too young to even carry a firearm. But that is based on "hunch", not facts.
Articulate facts is what's needed to establish reasonable suspicion.
Even if you were arrested for "failure to ID", Florida v J.L. clearly establishes that having a firearm is not enough reasonable suspicion for detainment, thus no crime being committed, and therefore no ID required.
However, in the real world, some can afford to go to jail, while others cannot. That choice is up to you. I for one have seen the injustice of the justice system, but eventually won out.
I am NOT whatsoever giving legal advice. Just giving one's opinion and perspective.
My opinion is that some LEOs are ignorant of the law and are comforted with the knowledge of the justice system backing their move. When true injustice occurs, it will only be a matter of time before the truth comes to light.
LEO 229 wrote:
Thats what happened to me in Hampton. One LEO said that I could be too young to even carry a firearm. But that is based on "hunch", not facts.
Articulate facts is what's needed to establish reasonable suspicion.
Even if you were arrested for "failure to ID", Florida v J.L. clearly establishes that having a firearm is not enough reasonable suspicion for detainment, thus no crime being committed, and therefore no ID required.
However, in the real world, some can afford to go to jail, while others cannot. That choice is up to you. I for one have seen the injustice of the justice system, but eventually won out.
I am NOT whatsoever giving legal advice. Just giving one's opinion and perspective.
My opinion is that some LEOs are ignorant of the law and are comforted with the knowledge of the justice system backing their move. When true injustice occurs, it will only be a matter of time before the truth comes to light.
Thundar
Regular Member
imported post
Link: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-371.2
Underage smoking in the Commonwealth is a civil, not criminal matter. Arrest for a civil matter could only happen if the offender refused to sign a summons, or told the police officer that he/she would not appear in court. To imply that a person suspected of being 17 years old could be summarily arrested for smoking tobacco in Virginia is wrong. To even suggest that police have the power to jail a person until they show ID is absurd.
Link: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-371.2
flropencarry
New member
imported post
Here's a nice one. I live in McLean and a police car pulls into my driveway with its lights turned off (stealth mode!) late while I was checking the tire pressure of a car after having unloaded it from a Memorial Day car trip. It was at 1 am, so possibly suspicious and apparently there was a missing child in the ' hood. (The car also had DC plates, but there were two other cars visible with VA plates and one had an open door from which I had obtained a tire gauge.) I had noticed a helicopter in the sky, which is not unusual due to the proximity to the CIA, but it's not typical activity in the wee hours.
The cop asks if I have seen the alleged missing child and also asks what I was doing and why I was out at this hour. While quietly resenting the interrogation beyond asking if I had seen the kid, I cooperate and politely explain where I had come from, why I was out at this hour and why I was checking the tire pressure. The story is plausible. I also tell him that I will surely call the police if I see any children wandering around. I then turn away from him and return to my car, expecting him to continue on his mission.
(Some more details. He also tells me that "Don't worry you are not in trouble" at some point. Gee, thanks, officer....... Two more cop cars pull up with flashing lights blocking the driveway from the street, which added to my discomfort.)
But that was not enough; he demands ID. I tell him that I am on my private property and he has no right to come onto my property and demand ID from me. The front door and my garage were open so it was unlikely that I was a child molester pretending to check tire pressure in someone's yard!?!?! I was also well dressed, etc. (Also, the kid had apparently run away from home from a house in the area and was wandering around, so there was not imminent risk of child abduction.)
The cop becomes extremely pissed off and goes on about how he needs to file report and what if this was my kid, and he couldn't believe that I was impeding his investigation.:shock:
I calmly try to educate him that I value my privacy and that he had no right to demand ID in this scenario. He is clearly very pissed off and does the same rant again. I was a bit confused if his main concern was the kid or being able to complete his paperwork; it sounded like the latter. Then he asks me to provide my name. I didn't want to do that either, but was not sure about my legal standing on that issue given VA's tendency toward being a police state in some respects, and wanted this guy to get the hell off my property. So I give him my name. But that's not enough; he demands middle initial and birthdate. Then he finally leaves after another lecture about how I am the scum of the earth for not caring about missing children and/or not being able to file his report properly.
This incident is pissing me off........ This is the same Fairfax County police that arrested some guys for open carry, and brought in a SWAT team and shot a harmless dentist (?) who ran a small bookmaking operation on the side.
People who have no respect for the Bill of Rights or rights to privacy will have no idea why I did not do what I was told and cough up the ID. Any suggestions for a follow up or other action? The attitude of the police here really needs to change.
Here's a nice one. I live in McLean and a police car pulls into my driveway with its lights turned off (stealth mode!) late while I was checking the tire pressure of a car after having unloaded it from a Memorial Day car trip. It was at 1 am, so possibly suspicious and apparently there was a missing child in the ' hood. (The car also had DC plates, but there were two other cars visible with VA plates and one had an open door from which I had obtained a tire gauge.) I had noticed a helicopter in the sky, which is not unusual due to the proximity to the CIA, but it's not typical activity in the wee hours.
The cop asks if I have seen the alleged missing child and also asks what I was doing and why I was out at this hour. While quietly resenting the interrogation beyond asking if I had seen the kid, I cooperate and politely explain where I had come from, why I was out at this hour and why I was checking the tire pressure. The story is plausible. I also tell him that I will surely call the police if I see any children wandering around. I then turn away from him and return to my car, expecting him to continue on his mission.
(Some more details. He also tells me that "Don't worry you are not in trouble" at some point. Gee, thanks, officer....... Two more cop cars pull up with flashing lights blocking the driveway from the street, which added to my discomfort.)
But that was not enough; he demands ID. I tell him that I am on my private property and he has no right to come onto my property and demand ID from me. The front door and my garage were open so it was unlikely that I was a child molester pretending to check tire pressure in someone's yard!?!?! I was also well dressed, etc. (Also, the kid had apparently run away from home from a house in the area and was wandering around, so there was not imminent risk of child abduction.)
The cop becomes extremely pissed off and goes on about how he needs to file report and what if this was my kid, and he couldn't believe that I was impeding his investigation.:shock:
I calmly try to educate him that I value my privacy and that he had no right to demand ID in this scenario. He is clearly very pissed off and does the same rant again. I was a bit confused if his main concern was the kid or being able to complete his paperwork; it sounded like the latter. Then he asks me to provide my name. I didn't want to do that either, but was not sure about my legal standing on that issue given VA's tendency toward being a police state in some respects, and wanted this guy to get the hell off my property. So I give him my name. But that's not enough; he demands middle initial and birthdate. Then he finally leaves after another lecture about how I am the scum of the earth for not caring about missing children and/or not being able to file his report properly.
This incident is pissing me off........ This is the same Fairfax County police that arrested some guys for open carry, and brought in a SWAT team and shot a harmless dentist (?) who ran a small bookmaking operation on the side.
People who have no respect for the Bill of Rights or rights to privacy will have no idea why I did not do what I was told and cough up the ID. Any suggestions for a follow up or other action? The attitude of the police here really needs to change.
caltain
Regular Member
imported post
[/quote][/quote]
Underage smoking in the Commonwealth is a civil, not criminal matter. Arrest for a civil matter could only happen if the offender refused to sign a summons, or told the police officer that he/she would not appear in court. To imply that a person suspected of being 17 years old could be summarily arrested for smoking tobacco in Virginia is wrong. To even suggest that police have the power to jail a person until they show ID is absurd.
Link: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-371.2
[/quote]
Consider the following.
You match the description of a man wanted in Idaho, who is the subject of an FBI bolo given to the local LEOs at roll call, as he is believed to be in the area. You are consequently stopped while walking down the street, and questioned. You are in NOVA with the intent of purchasing a gun at the gun show later this hypothetical day, but you live in tidewater. You refuse to give any identifying info. The LEO can, and probably will, detain you untill he can determine your identity to a reasonable certainty.
So you're right that you don't have to produce that ID, but you can be held in lockup untill they figure it out.
Having a right to do/not do something doesn't mean that it's a good idea all the time. When I've been stopped by LEOs, I have USUALLY given my true name, because I have no reason to do otherwise. If Mr. LEO is nice, then so am I. Who knows what the future holds. If I have to discharge my weapon in his jurisdiction, and Mr. LEO responds, I'd rather have him remember that I'm cooperative not obstenate. Remember this: Any LEO that you interact with could be involved in investigating the self defense shooting you just enacted. Be nice, polite and helpful when you can. If you can't for some reason, be firm, respectful, careful and correct in your knowledge and assumptions, or it may bite you in the butt.
If I thought that I was actually suspected of something, I'd turn mute. There's no harm in telling the officer your name, even when you both know it's voluntary. If he cuffs you after that, shut up and literally say nothing except that you have nothing to say except in the presence of your attorney. Don't eat anything unless you can eat every single crumb, and there are no utensils involved. Never drink anything that comes in a container, and don't smoke, even if it kills you.
Oh, if you have to pee, claim kidney stones. That makes it less likely that they can use your comfort against you during questioning. Better yet, if you have the stones to do it is to just go ahead and go in your pants. They won't refuse the request again.
Dan
[/quote][/quote]
Underage smoking in the Commonwealth is a civil, not criminal matter. Arrest for a civil matter could only happen if the offender refused to sign a summons, or told the police officer that he/she would not appear in court. To imply that a person suspected of being 17 years old could be summarily arrested for smoking tobacco in Virginia is wrong. To even suggest that police have the power to jail a person until they show ID is absurd.
Link: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-371.2
[/quote]
Consider the following.
You match the description of a man wanted in Idaho, who is the subject of an FBI bolo given to the local LEOs at roll call, as he is believed to be in the area. You are consequently stopped while walking down the street, and questioned. You are in NOVA with the intent of purchasing a gun at the gun show later this hypothetical day, but you live in tidewater. You refuse to give any identifying info. The LEO can, and probably will, detain you untill he can determine your identity to a reasonable certainty.
So you're right that you don't have to produce that ID, but you can be held in lockup untill they figure it out.
Having a right to do/not do something doesn't mean that it's a good idea all the time. When I've been stopped by LEOs, I have USUALLY given my true name, because I have no reason to do otherwise. If Mr. LEO is nice, then so am I. Who knows what the future holds. If I have to discharge my weapon in his jurisdiction, and Mr. LEO responds, I'd rather have him remember that I'm cooperative not obstenate. Remember this: Any LEO that you interact with could be involved in investigating the self defense shooting you just enacted. Be nice, polite and helpful when you can. If you can't for some reason, be firm, respectful, careful and correct in your knowledge and assumptions, or it may bite you in the butt.
If I thought that I was actually suspected of something, I'd turn mute. There's no harm in telling the officer your name, even when you both know it's voluntary. If he cuffs you after that, shut up and literally say nothing except that you have nothing to say except in the presence of your attorney. Don't eat anything unless you can eat every single crumb, and there are no utensils involved. Never drink anything that comes in a container, and don't smoke, even if it kills you.
Oh, if you have to pee, claim kidney stones. That makes it less likely that they can use your comfort against you during questioning. Better yet, if you have the stones to do it is to just go ahead and go in your pants. They won't refuse the request again.
Dan
asforme
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Caltain, watch this video and check out the thread: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/10418-1.html
The problem is that LEOs can say anything they want to you. They can be investigating you in a situation where you would usually be mute, but they can tell you they're investigating someone else. For this reason I will say nothing in almost every situation.
Caltain, watch this video and check out the thread: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/10418-1.html
The problem is that LEOs can say anything they want to you. They can be investigating you in a situation where you would usually be mute, but they can tell you they're investigating someone else. For this reason I will say nothing in almost every situation.
caltain
Regular Member
imported post
I know the drill. They can lie to you, but you can't lie to them. I only meant that a name and city of residence are apt to speed the situation along. If the LEO has cause to arrest you, he will either way. If not then providing this information makes him happy, and he can go away. I fail to see how providing the info stated can harm you, or help your case if you get arrested.
That said, in off to read the info you suggest. If it convinces me otherwise, I'll say so, and recommend withholding the info in the future.
Dan
I know the drill. They can lie to you, but you can't lie to them. I only meant that a name and city of residence are apt to speed the situation along. If the LEO has cause to arrest you, he will either way. If not then providing this information makes him happy, and he can go away. I fail to see how providing the info stated can harm you, or help your case if you get arrested.
That said, in off to read the info you suggest. If it convinces me otherwise, I'll say so, and recommend withholding the info in the future.
Dan
roscoe13
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Dutch Uncle wrote:
Dutch Uncle wrote:
Trouble, or circulation?