What would YOU do?

[open4years]

imported post

architect wrote:

Given the premise of the OP, I think you have to take the shot in spite of the additional risk to the hostage. Let's assume that you don't miss your intended target.  You still have to hope that the shock of being hit pulls the assailant's point of aim off the hostage before his autonomous clench reflex pulls the trigger.

My main rationale is that the assailant's previous action of shooting a clerk has already escalated the situation past a robbery. The assailant now has little to lose by choosing not to leave witnesses. You would be defending your own life, and that of the others in the bank, thinking you're going to save the hostage's too is unrealistic.

Without the element of the assailant shooting the clerk before
announcing a holdup, I would say no. You would be escalating the situation not defusing it.

Thank goodness this is hypothetical, I hope none of us are ever faced with this choice!

A good hit to the brain is supposed to stop the reflex action, even if his finger is on the trigger.

 

[open4years]

imported post

SouthernBoy wrote:

open4years wrote:

Me too! But, even though it may seem morbid, I think it is good to think through scenarios. Granted, most of us aren't LEO's, but they aren't put on duty being told to figure out what the right thing to do is, when it happens. They train for many scenarios.

We choose to carry a firearm. Some may carry only for SD. That was my original plan. But I couldn't stand by and do nothing when people are being injured or killed. I would not consider my safety before the safety of many. I couldn't live with myself if I had the means to stop a murderer and I didn't act because I was afraid of getting killed.

That is me. We are all different. My life experiences and my faith has created the 'me' that exists at this point. I don't have a wife or children
and I can imagine that can certainly change one's outlook on this scenario. But, by not acting you could cause another father, mother or child to die, perhaps more than one.

Let 's pray that none of us ever have to face this scenario for real.

Playing "what if" games is always a positive move... don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise. I have done this for probably more years than most
on this site have been alive for both driving and defensive shooting scenarios. And I can tell you for my driving "what if's", they have saved my life, and the lives of family members, quite a few times.

The best time and way to play defensive what if games is when you are in a potential situation/location which could turn real. A restaurant. Standing in a line. A mini-mart/gas station. A shopping center. You get the idea. Imagine situations in places such as these where suddenly something extreme begins to unfold. What you would do, how you would hope to react.
So play what if scenarios frequently. One of them could save your life.

I agree; No surprise there! I have also saved my life and the life of others by thinking through scenarios.

I was approaching a red light, after topping a hill. I played "what if" with the scenario of an approaching vehicle behind me. I realized they wouldn't have time to stop.

So, I left three car lengths behind me and I kept my eye on the rear view mirror. Then the scenario became real. A car was rapidly approaching and then they braked so hard, there was smoke everywhere.

I followed my plan. There was a grassy area to my right. First, I moved forward while watching the approaching vehicle. I realized that they would hit me even if I moved all the way up to the next vehicle. So, I drove off the road and onto the grassy area. The vehicle stopped one foot from the bumper of the car that had been ahead of me.

There was a study done (no, I don't know the source) years ago where two groups of basketball players were monitored to get a baseline of their abilities. Then one group practiced an hour a day, for two weeks. The other group spent an hour a day, for two weeks, imagining they were on the court and visualized themselves sinking throws.

I know that both groups tested, at least, the same. So, thinking through scenarios can be as good as the real experience. Many LEO's have stated they acted on reflex when 'it' hit the fan.

There have been many times in my life that I've saved my life and perhaps the lives of others. I rode motorcycles for several decades and I still would be if it wasn't for medical problems.

It isn't unusual for people to pull out right in front of you. I adopted the thinking that each driver was going to pull out in front of me. I weighed my options and quickly developed a plan. Part 1 was to get the driver to notice me. I never had a wreck, but I had some close calls. I would have been killed if I wasn't being observant and thought through scenarios.

I sold the Honda GoldWing, that I had ridden over 25 years. The guy, that bought it from me had a car pull out in front of him on a 35mph road. He died. I can't say for sure, but I don't think it would have happened to me. I drove, on that road for many of those 25 years.

If you don't think you need to do it because you carry a gun, then do so while driving. Drive defensively - which basically is thinking through scenarios. Is that car going to pull out in front of me? Decide what to do if it happens, or move to another lane to reduce the risk.

Sorry, I've taught driving courses and I owe my life to it for keeping my skills current.

 

[frommycolddeadhands]

imported post

Good hypothetical. I don't think I would take the shot, too risky to the hostage. There are a million ways that taking the shot could go wrong. I might hit the hostage. I might hit the guy and his reflex pulls the trigger and kills the hostage. I might miss them both and really make things bad. The bullet might glance off him. Who knows. I would keep as much cover and concealment as possible and hope to heck that the guy would get the money and go without killing any one else. If possible I would draw my gun and keep it out of view. Eventually he's going to have to move. He's either going to get the money and go without killing anyone else (In which case I'd let him go, let 5-0 handle him) or he's going to execute the hostage (at which point I would definately take the shot in order to save myself and anyone else that he might decide to shoot) or finally he might hold onto the hostage as a shield while he shoots at other customers in the store...in which case I would probably stay right where I was at and hope to hell he didn't hit anyone, but I wouldn't be leaving my cover while bullets were flying.

 

[SavageOne]

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About the only thing I could do is tell the hostage the only consolation I could give her is that a second after she starts winging her way to Heaven I'll be send that a$$hole screaming to Hell.

 

[MamaLiberty]

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Just an idea here... if the potential criminal KNEW that some or most of the patrons of that bank were armed and free to send him to hell...

What do you think the chances are he'd start any of that?

You all know why the mass shooters go to schools and churches instead of gun ranges. You know there are more people shot and killed in places where guns are "banned" than in places where they are common and accepted.

Yes, it is important to think about and mentally plan for such an incident. But the more of us who carry, the fewer opportunities these criminals will have. They much prefer helpless victims.

 

[Mas49.56]

imported post

Pistol rounds are pretty weak. They can bounce off a skull in real life, even with good shot placement. That's a "no shoot for me", with a pistol. Now give me an AR, have him face me, hold still, and see his eye, he's toast.

 

[MSC 45ACP]

If the target (his head) was a big enough target at 25 yards or less, I feel comfortable taking the shot and making it. Lots of variables here and no one knows what would happen until you're actually in the situation. As a retired LEO and small arms instructor, I feel pretty confident in my shooting ability out to 50 yards (with a match-grade pistol) and 25 yards with my current carry gun.

If one of my own children was the hostage, I would hesitate to take the shot...
Just long enough to take a slow breath,
let it half-way out and hold it,
take up the slack in the trigger
focus on the front sight
and slowly increase the pressure on the trigger until the hammer fell........

Many of us continuously play "What if..." from the time we wake up in the morning until the time we fall off to sleep.

If you carry (OC or CC), the question I have for you is:
Do YOU play "What If..." during every waking moment of every day?
If not, WHY NOT???
You certainly should...

Can you hit a 3" x 5" card consistently at 10 yards as fast as you can acquire a sight picture and squeeze the trigger?
If not, perhaps you have no business carrying a weapon in public.
You may be more of a liability than an asset to your fellow man.
When you made the decision to carry a firearm in public, you ASSUMED a great deal of responsibility.
How many of you TRULY think about the awesome amount of responsibility that rests on your hip (or in your pocket) on a regular basis?

Sadly, there are a few of you out there that carry "because its cool" or you want to intimidate other people. Eventually, you'll make a life-altering decision. It could be one that lands you in the pokey.
Hopefully, it won't be after you've wrongly taken the life of another.

Let's be careful out there...
<rant off>

 

[arentol]

I would..

I would try to maneuver to a position where I had some cover but from which I could also see and shoot the criminal. Then I would wait for a good shot. If that meant I would have to wait for the end of the countdown and the possibility he would shoot the hostage then that is what I would do. I definitely am not a good enough shot to try the shot with the hostage between us.

Basically if I took the shot and didn't hit him, which would be extremely likely, then it would turn into a gun-fight and that is too much risk for everyone involved.

Instead I would wait it out so I could all but guarantee a hit on him when I do fire. If the hostage dies as a result, that is better than me killing her, or lots of people being caught in crossfire, myself getting shot, and the criminal killing me as well, which would be far more likely than if I waited for the right shot.

 

[Mini14]

Invalid scenario, the aforementioned shot risks glancing off the attacker's skull and hitting another person. Real World: wait until his dead line has failed, then empty the magazine into him, too. This isn't Superfriends, the hostage is already walking dead.

Think before you post these .'Sword of Damocles'-style scenarios, the aforementioned scenarios just empower antigun activists.

 

[Alexcabbie]

The scenario: You are in a store/bank/etc. A man enters and shoots a cashier, killing her. He then grabs a woman and puts a gun to her head and uses her as cover. (You are carrying, but he hasn't noticed.)
He then tells the manager to open the safe or he will kill the woman. He states: "You have 20 seconds or I'll kill her."

You have cover, there is no bystander that could be injured by your shot. Your only shot is to half of his head as the woman is covering the rest. You are 20' away with no obstructions in the line of fire. He has told everyone not to move or he will kill them. Moving for a better shot is not an option.

Would you do nothing, assuming that he won't kill anyone else? Or, would you take the shot?

What I would probably do in that situation is get behind that cover and flip-phone the cops. The possibility that my round would kill the hostage is too great a risk to innocent life. However, the second he took the gun aff the hostage and aimed it at me, or if, God forbid, he shot the hosstage, then bye, bye bad guy.
Were I to draw down and atempt a "Mexican standoff", it wouldn't be much of a standoff, he'd just shoot using the hostage as a shield.
Better still, how about reacting BEFORE he grabs the hostage?

 

[okboomer]

I Would

Mini14 - these discussions may be used out of context by the antis, but that is beyond our control. These exercises should be a part of responsible gun carry. They are an invaluable tool in preparing mentally for the necessity of taking action. What has been posted here are reasonable and several issues and concerns have been raised that should be taken into consideration by all. Besides, it is fun when watching movies and tv to game out scenarios that they show with "impossible" results :lol:

As for the scenario, SO and I have actually worked on some of the targeting out at the range (open air, empty of others) and the best compliment he has given me was when asked, he said, "she's a good shot and I would let her shoot the BG off my back anytime."

So, yes, IF I had an opportunity to take the shot without endangering others, I would take the shot. But that is just me. Each has to make their own decision and it is not my place to say whether it is the right or wrong decision.

If only one teacher at VT had a gun, or a student, there might have been far fewer deaths. I am not LEO, don't want to be. But I don't think I could stand by and see innocents slaughtered when I have the means to stop the threat. YMMV

 

[merc460]

If the BG is intent on killing innocent people, and "the shot" is clear enough, then I would take it. A situation such as this is has a lot of variables, and one would pray it never happens.

Here is a 7 yd target me and my 14 yr old son shot (his on the left). We practice as much as possible.

 

[erb]

I don't think I would because I'd be responsible for the hostage. Too much risk for me and I'm not trained for that.
But damn, if he shot the hostage when I know I had a clear shot - I don't know if I could live with that.

 

[MSC 45ACP]

If the BG is intent on killing innocent people, and "the shot" is clear enough, then I would take it. A situation such as this is has a lot of variables, and one would pray it never happens.

Here is a 7 yd target me and my 14 yr old son shot (his on the left). We practice as much as possible.

20' away... Less than 7 yards. MOST folks I shoot with can easily "print" a group the size of a half-dollar or smaller at 7 yards. It certainly is NOT rocket science!!! Its pretty much of a no-brainer, except for the hostage. If the hostage-taker isn't moving around constantly, its a "do-able" shot, but most certainly not an easy one. The comments about pistol rounds "bouncing off skulls" would apply at 25 yards or more, but certainly not less than 7 yards if they are in the "major caliber" family (cartridges that start with a "4" or .357)...

Many of us do practice for this EXACT scenario. It would be silly not to.

 

[merc460]

20' away... Less than 7 yards. MOST folks I shoot with can easily "print" a group the size of a half-dollar or smaller at 7 yards. It certainly is NOT rocket science!!! Its pretty much of a no-brainer, except for the hostage. If the hostage-taker isn't moving around constantly, its a "do-able" shot, but most certainly not an easy one. The comments about pistol rounds "bouncing off skulls" would apply at 25 yards or more, but certainly not less than 7 yards if they are in the "major caliber" family (cartridges that start with a "4" or .357)...

Many of us do practice for this EXACT scenario. It would be silly not to.

I'm guessing that is a stab. That's OK, because when my son shot that target, it was one of the biggest "proud Dad" moments I have ever had. We (my son and I) are no expert marksmen as your group is, but at least we are trying to get better.

 

[happybucklander]

What would I do? Probably panic! What do I think is the best answer though?

Well, the hostage has a good chance of being dead, but I'd like to lesson the odds that I be the one to kill her. I'd like to think that I'd take careful aim, take what cover there is and wait. If disclosing my firearm is going to be super obvious, and he's not directly threatening then I'll keep it holstered. If he shoots her, then I've got a clear shot at him and he'll be distracted. If he let's her go to leave I've got a clear shot at him maybe. If he drags her into his vehicle I'm shooting (as she's gonna be dead anyways) when I get the clearest shot. If he is threatening to me, I'm shooting.

 

[jay75009]

depends on what im carrying. if its my glock 23.........maybe try something, taurus 745........i would probably shoot her on accident .....in a high stress situation.......aim is gonna suck, your worst day at the range is your best day when it starts flying. depends on if he is distracted or not, dont wanna draw my weapon and have him notice me do so , plug me, then her........depends on whether or not i can get my front sight painted on him before he notices me. 20ft is easy to hit on the range in a highly controlled situation,but then again its just a lil more than 6 yards ..........but then in that situation........seeing as he is concealing 1/2 his head behind hers, he only has vision on one side, i would probably try to rotate my position towards his bad side and move in for a closer shot from a different angle 3 1/2" target zone in that situation with adrenaline going full bore, tunnel vision, sweating hands and outside influances it is just not good enough.

 

[rmansu2]

I don't think I could risk the life of the hostage. I am a decent enough shot to hit him at 20' but do I think that I could hit a moving target the size of half a head, nope. I would have to agree with many others, wait stay "concealed" as well as you can and if it so happens that he drops her or she gets loose, I would like to think I would take the shot. I wouldn't risk being the killer or even shooting her in the leg to redirect his attention. If I wanted to redirect his attention, I could just as easily put a round in the ceiling and hope the same thing. As for a perfect head shot, there are no gaurantees. There was actually a case in Baton Rouge, LA were a CCW holder saved the life of an officer in an Autozone parking lot but only after emptying his magazine(of .45) into the assailant. You just never know what will happen. I always play what if games during the day. In traffic, at work, at home, even in before I go to sleep.

 

[MSC 45ACP]

I'm guessing that is a stab. That's OK, because when my son shot that target, it was one of the biggest "proud Dad" moments I have ever had. We (my son and I) are no expert marksmen as your group is, but at least we are trying to get better.

Merc, Sorry Brother, that wasn't intended as a "stab". My shooting buddies and I are retired or active LE and/or members of antiterrorism units. Several of us have also been marksmanship instructors for 20+ years. We've been shooting at 3" x 5" cards at 25 yards or less for a long time.

I share your "Proud Dad" moments. Two of my daughters are also shooters. My oldest does pretty well with her Glock 21SF, but her 13 year-old sister is a near-prodigy with a .22 match rifle. I got an old Anschutz Model 10 single-shot and she "drives tacks" at the 25 yard line with it. Her groups are about the size of my thumbnail. I wish I had started at her age! I hope she sticks with it!

if you don't live too far away, We're always up for a road trip. We really enjoy going to other places to shoot and make new friends. We would be honored to be your guests at the range.

Respectfully;
Mike

 

[MSC 45ACP]

... I wouldn't risk being the killer or even shooting her in the leg to redirect his attention. If I wanted to redirect his attention, I could just as easily put a round in the ceiling and hope the same thing...

1. Don't even THINK about "shooting someone in the leg"; BG or witness. If you shoot a BG in the leg, its called MAIMING and you WILL be prosecuted. You are shooting someone to STOP them from committing a serious felony; Specifically, to stop them from causing serious bodily harm or death to you or someone else. This is the ONLY time that you, as a non-LEO can discharge your weapon: TO PREVENT SERIOUS BOLIDY HARM OR DEATH. When you DO make the decision that its time to shoot someone, you should be shooting center mass until the threat is no longer a threat. If you shoot him center mass (or think you did) and he is still a threat to you or others, continue firing until they are not able to hurt you any more. If you shoot him after he is already incapacitated, you may be charged with a crime. I know... Its pretty darn hard to stop shooting when the SHTF. You better be able to justify every pull of the trigger in a court of law. This is the BIGGEST reason you need to STFU and ask for legal counsel after any incident where you have even unholstered your weapon. Its very trick ground, legally speaking...

Have you actually thought about shooting a victim, witness, goodguy or whatever??? HAS THE CHEESE SLIPPED FROM THY CRACKER??? The ONLY "distraction" a BG needs is looking down the barrel of your weapon, seeing that you mean business. If you're prepared to pull the trigger, don't hesitate, just do it (unless you don't feel confident you can "make" the shot).

Don't EVEN THINK about firing a "warning shot"... EVER!!! You will surely be prosecuted in any jurisdiction for this complete act of stupidity. PLEASE do some research in your jurisdiction on the subject of "warning shots". YOU are liable for every single round that leaves your weapon. There are a few rounds on the market (frangible for one) that pretty much stop at the first thing they hit and don't go any farther. There are even MORE rounds that have WONDERFUL penetration characteristics. They are nice to look at when you are looking at a block of ballistic gel with a 24" wound channel, but horrifying to think about when you look at the hole in an apartment door that also has an exit hole, an entry hole in a wall and an exit hole beyond that and another entry hole and.... into the next apartment where a 6 month old baby is in a crib.

Sorry for the extended rant. This entry put me so far into orbit I had to vent...