Smith45acp
Regular Member
Arrested for "Failure to produce ID, Failure to produce CC Permit" - while OC'ing
The following is a detailed transcript of the recording made prior to Adam’s arrest on December 17th, 2010 at or around 7:22pm. Adam is standing in line at the Gamestop store with a Gamestop bag and receipt in hand, and an OWB serpa retention-holstered handgun in plain view. Dress shirt tucked all the way into slacks, having just come from a wedding rehearsal dinner. Officer Pope and Captain Bullock are members of the Crabtree Special Police, at Crabtree Valley Mall.
Officer Pope: You got any like, CCW[sic] or anything like that?
--*note*--CCW, or “Carrying Concealed Weapons”, is something NC recognizes as a crime, and is addressed by a specific statute: § 14 269 (thanks Dreamer!).
Adam: “What does a ‘CCW’ have to do with anything here today?
Officer Pope: Well this is private property and like I said you’re well within your rights to open carry, it’s just due to the fact that this is private property, you know the owners don’t like visible weapons inside the mall.
Adam: Okay.
Officer Pope: So that’s the only thing, you know. In your – well if you took the CCW class you would have been given a list of places you can and cannot carry even openly. But you don’t have that obviously.
--*note*-- Nowhere in the NC Firearms Laws does it list businesses such as Crabtree Mall as restricted areas.
Officer Pope: So you got some ID on you today?
Adam: I might have my driver’s license on me but I’m not driving a vehicle. Look, I came here to return something to this store. And these folks here don’t have any problem with it. I carry a gun every day --
Officer Pope: I can understand that.
Adam: -- and it’s never been a problem before. I haven’t broken any laws coming in here --
Officer Pope: Yeah
Adam: -- and I’m having a hard time understanding what the problem is.
Officer Pope: Because I’m telling you it is private property, and being private property whatever these people say it’s, it’s the gospel.
Capt. Bullock: Sir I’m Capt. Bullock with the Police Department. We do have a [garbled] that says no concealed weapons are allowed; that means open carry or anything else. Ok, so do you have an ID?
Adam: Ok, I --
Capt. Bullock: Let me explain something, when you’re violating that [garbled] you’re violating law because you’re refusing to give me ID.
Adam: Ok. Officer, Bullock? When I came into this mall I didn’t pass any signs that said I wasn’t allowed to carry a handgun.
Capt. Bullock: Do you have an ID?
Adam: I do have an ID.
Capt. Bullock: Ok, let me have your ID right quick ok?
Adam: I’m not willing to share that ID with you.
Capt. Bullock: Let me explain something to you; it’s not that serious of an issue right now – you’re making it into a serious issue. And at that moment when you refuse to give me your ID, that means we’re going to place you under arrest, you understand me?
Adam: What would the charge be?
Capt. Bullock: It’s gonna be failure to -- It’s gonna be RDO; you’re not cooperating with the police when they’re asking you a question, ok?
Adam : Ok. Here is what I’m willing to do - -
Capt. Bullock: Ok.
Adam: If the people in control of this property --
Capt. Bullock: No, I’m in – I’m in control right now because I work for those people. You understand?
Adam: Being - -
Capt. Bullock: [to radio: 122 to base] I’m not going to sit here and argue with you ok?
Adam: I’m not, just let me get this out ok?
Capt. Bullock: Let me explain something to you; you are 30 seconds from going to jail, understand me? Let me have your ID.
Adam: Being on private property, if I’m being asked to leave I would be happy to do so.
Capt. Bullock: You’re not being asked to leave, I’m asking for your ID.
Adam: Ok.
Capt. Bullock: Let me have your ID.
Adam: I’m not carrying a concealed weapon - -
--*Recording is shut off as I am roughly shoved against the nearest wall by at least 3 officers, one of who barks repeatedly at me to "STOP RESISTING". I did not physically resist the arrest whatsoever, so apparently yelling "Stop resisting" is basic protocol for these folks, obviously to enhance the rationale of using excessive force to handcuff and frisk me, as I was a rag-doll.
Although I was lame with both a lower back problem (had also just come from my chiropractor) and slowly recovering from knee surgery (I walk with a slight limp), my requests for the two officers pushing me along by my handcuffed arms to slow down a little bit were ignored. Literally hundreds of people have stopped and are staring at me as I am forced to lead the parade outside and to the police office on site.
The exact order of some of what took place over the next 2 hours that I was in their custody, before being transported to the Wake Co. Detention center is hard to recall. To say my stress level was high...
I am asked repeated questions like: Who do you work for? Why are you carrying a handgun? What kind of car do you drive? I didn't answer any of these questions, but that didn't stop the officers from going through the inner pockets of my wallet and finding my insurance card, then proudly telling me they had found my make and model, and of course they have my keyless entry fob. It is unclear whether or not my vehicle was located and searched, but it would not surprise me.
Several times the chief of this dept. comes to 'talk at me'. He explains to me that if I have been issued a CHP and am in possession of a handgun, I MUST show the permit and a photo ID to any officer who asks. I replied with that not being my understanding. The chief comes back a few minutes later and reads this:
“Any individual who has applied for and has been issued a concealed handgun permit
must follow certain regulations concerning its use. Not only must the individual carry the
permit along with proper identification whenever the handgun is being carried concealed,
but he/she must also inform any law enforcement officer who approaches him/her that
he/she is in possession of a permit and a concealed handgun. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-
415.11(a)”
The only problem was, as he was reading it from the printout he just made he changed the verbiage, removing that small detail about the handgun BEING CONCEALED.
I asked him if I could read it for myself and, looking offended, he replies, "No you can not. See, you're not the only one who can be obstinate". The chief goes on further, informing me that Sheriff Donnie is a buddy of his. He told me he would be sure to call him the next day and have my CHP revoked. Apparently this was unsuccessful as I have never been asked to relinquish my permit. Furthermore, even if I admitted guilt to the charge I would not have lost my CHP.
I ask for water and am given it, as well as a supervised restroom visit. Why they insisted on watching me pee I do not know, for I had already been fully searched to include handling of my genitals through my pants. I can no longer say that my girlfriend and my Dr. have had the privilege... This happened again during intake at the co. jail. If a TSA pat-down is a 5 on my scale of discomfort and intrusion, this would have to be a 9. Only to be bested by cavity exploration.
Eventually I am transported to jail along with some scumbag drunk who was peeing on cars in the parking garage.
After taking mugshots, fingerprints, tattoos being documented etc., I am placed in a holding cell. There are 6-8 guys sharing with me, one of whom is a man snoring on the floor who has pissed and crapped his pants.
After 7 hours inside the county jail, dealing with the sticky handset of a phone that is barely functional, a very good friend is able to post my $1,500 secured bond. By now it is around 3am, and remember that rehearsal dinner? I'm to be a groomsman in just a few short hours.
I take a cab back to crabtree's parking deck to pick up my car, and after the cabbie drops me off I take 10 or so good photos of the entrance I used, next to my car. There is only one policy posted and it is for smoking inside. This is shown clearly in the photos I have large glossy prints of.
Today was the 4th appearance in court. Finally the officer showed up, so we could get started, just 5 months later. The DA was able to speak with the officer about this case for the first time, and did so at least in part in front of my attorney. According to my attorney,the officer informed the DA that he had asked me to leave and I had refused. Ok, so this is the kind of guy I'm dealing with? Whether his misrecollection was malicious or due simply to incompetence I don't know. But I am inclined to believe the former since the discrepancy was gross and obviously against my favor.
Furthermore, the face of the original charge sheet (written by this same officer) describes my alleged offense as: NCGS 14-223, Resist, Delay, or Obstruct a public officer while discharging or attempting to discharge a duty of his office. Then in the space below it elaborates as follows: "Failure to provide ID, failure to provide CC permit."
The DA offers to plea my class II 14-223 R,D,O charge down to a class III misdemeanor of trespassing. I said thanks but no thanks, I didn't do that (trespass) either.
The arresting officer goes back to his seat, and my lawyer plays the recording of the arrest for the DA in a back room somewhere. They come back out and I get a thumbs up. Apparently the DA was not inclined to allow the officer to perjure himself on the stand, and my charge was dismissed immediately after reviewing my evidence.
My attorney had prepared a form to be signed by the judge, so that after ~5 months my handgun would be returned to me. I am supposed to meet both officers around 6pm this evening for the exchange. My Gadsden Flag shirt is already sported, right on top of the one permanently etched into my skin.
Look, I want to be clear about why I am NOT sharing this. I do not want any Monday morning quarterbacking, chastising, or admonishments for any detail or even the sum of my actions and decisions. You can keep that crap to yourself. Last time I was willing to share an unfavorable LEO interaction I was stuck defending my "situational awareness", since the cops were allowed to grab me with force. You handle things however you see fitting and I'll do the same.
I AM going out on a limb and sharing because I feel my very painful experience may help other OCDO members. Jail, and the experience as a whole, has been MUCH worse than I ever imagined it would be. But I would stand my ground just as adamantly tomorrow as I did in December. If you are ever faced with a similar circumstance you may, unfortunately, have to weigh for yourself whether or not this is something you'd be willing to go through. It could have gone much better, or much worse. If you don't learn anything else from this, RECORD YOUR NON-CONSENSUAL INTERACTIONS WITH THE POLICE!!!!!!! If you have children to pick up or other such commitments your choices may understandably be limited.
Only just having been exonerated, I have not made any decisions on how or if I will pursue reparations, but no one has apologized to me yet.
I would also ask that no one "do anything" on my behalf, or in light of hearing this account. What I mean is phone calls or emails. I can handle this, but if you have some sound advice post it, or PM me. I have been very careful not to give the parties involved a piece of my mind so far, and would ask the same of those reading this.
Regarding ID during a "Terry Stop" (I do not recognize my initial encounter with these officers as a legitimate Terry Stop, BTW)
http://policehelp.net/pubs/2004/rollcallv3n7.pdf
http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/...ceChief/PoliceAttorney/Documents/04MayJun.pdf - - See item #3 on the contents list
And here is one on the charge of RDO:
http://policehelp.net/pubs/ralph/RandRjune1_05.pdf
**The above opinions are written by very well studied ADVOCATES FOR LEO's**
The following is a detailed transcript of the recording made prior to Adam’s arrest on December 17th, 2010 at or around 7:22pm. Adam is standing in line at the Gamestop store with a Gamestop bag and receipt in hand, and an OWB serpa retention-holstered handgun in plain view. Dress shirt tucked all the way into slacks, having just come from a wedding rehearsal dinner. Officer Pope and Captain Bullock are members of the Crabtree Special Police, at Crabtree Valley Mall.
Officer Pope: You got any like, CCW[sic] or anything like that?
--*note*--CCW, or “Carrying Concealed Weapons”, is something NC recognizes as a crime, and is addressed by a specific statute: § 14 269 (thanks Dreamer!).
Adam: “What does a ‘CCW’ have to do with anything here today?
Officer Pope: Well this is private property and like I said you’re well within your rights to open carry, it’s just due to the fact that this is private property, you know the owners don’t like visible weapons inside the mall.
Adam: Okay.
Officer Pope: So that’s the only thing, you know. In your – well if you took the CCW class you would have been given a list of places you can and cannot carry even openly. But you don’t have that obviously.
--*note*-- Nowhere in the NC Firearms Laws does it list businesses such as Crabtree Mall as restricted areas.
Officer Pope: So you got some ID on you today?
Adam: I might have my driver’s license on me but I’m not driving a vehicle. Look, I came here to return something to this store. And these folks here don’t have any problem with it. I carry a gun every day --
Officer Pope: I can understand that.
Adam: -- and it’s never been a problem before. I haven’t broken any laws coming in here --
Officer Pope: Yeah
Adam: -- and I’m having a hard time understanding what the problem is.
Officer Pope: Because I’m telling you it is private property, and being private property whatever these people say it’s, it’s the gospel.
Capt. Bullock: Sir I’m Capt. Bullock with the Police Department. We do have a [garbled] that says no concealed weapons are allowed; that means open carry or anything else. Ok, so do you have an ID?
Adam: Ok, I --
Capt. Bullock: Let me explain something, when you’re violating that [garbled] you’re violating law because you’re refusing to give me ID.
Adam: Ok. Officer, Bullock? When I came into this mall I didn’t pass any signs that said I wasn’t allowed to carry a handgun.
Capt. Bullock: Do you have an ID?
Adam: I do have an ID.
Capt. Bullock: Ok, let me have your ID right quick ok?
Adam: I’m not willing to share that ID with you.
Capt. Bullock: Let me explain something to you; it’s not that serious of an issue right now – you’re making it into a serious issue. And at that moment when you refuse to give me your ID, that means we’re going to place you under arrest, you understand me?
Adam: What would the charge be?
Capt. Bullock: It’s gonna be failure to -- It’s gonna be RDO; you’re not cooperating with the police when they’re asking you a question, ok?
Adam : Ok. Here is what I’m willing to do - -
Capt. Bullock: Ok.
Adam: If the people in control of this property --
Capt. Bullock: No, I’m in – I’m in control right now because I work for those people. You understand?
Adam: Being - -
Capt. Bullock: [to radio: 122 to base] I’m not going to sit here and argue with you ok?
Adam: I’m not, just let me get this out ok?
Capt. Bullock: Let me explain something to you; you are 30 seconds from going to jail, understand me? Let me have your ID.
Adam: Being on private property, if I’m being asked to leave I would be happy to do so.
Capt. Bullock: You’re not being asked to leave, I’m asking for your ID.
Adam: Ok.
Capt. Bullock: Let me have your ID.
Adam: I’m not carrying a concealed weapon - -
--*Recording is shut off as I am roughly shoved against the nearest wall by at least 3 officers, one of who barks repeatedly at me to "STOP RESISTING". I did not physically resist the arrest whatsoever, so apparently yelling "Stop resisting" is basic protocol for these folks, obviously to enhance the rationale of using excessive force to handcuff and frisk me, as I was a rag-doll.
Although I was lame with both a lower back problem (had also just come from my chiropractor) and slowly recovering from knee surgery (I walk with a slight limp), my requests for the two officers pushing me along by my handcuffed arms to slow down a little bit were ignored. Literally hundreds of people have stopped and are staring at me as I am forced to lead the parade outside and to the police office on site.
The exact order of some of what took place over the next 2 hours that I was in their custody, before being transported to the Wake Co. Detention center is hard to recall. To say my stress level was high...
I am asked repeated questions like: Who do you work for? Why are you carrying a handgun? What kind of car do you drive? I didn't answer any of these questions, but that didn't stop the officers from going through the inner pockets of my wallet and finding my insurance card, then proudly telling me they had found my make and model, and of course they have my keyless entry fob. It is unclear whether or not my vehicle was located and searched, but it would not surprise me.
Several times the chief of this dept. comes to 'talk at me'. He explains to me that if I have been issued a CHP and am in possession of a handgun, I MUST show the permit and a photo ID to any officer who asks. I replied with that not being my understanding. The chief comes back a few minutes later and reads this:
“Any individual who has applied for and has been issued a concealed handgun permit
must follow certain regulations concerning its use. Not only must the individual carry the
permit along with proper identification whenever the handgun is being carried concealed,
but he/she must also inform any law enforcement officer who approaches him/her that
he/she is in possession of a permit and a concealed handgun. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-
415.11(a)”
The only problem was, as he was reading it from the printout he just made he changed the verbiage, removing that small detail about the handgun BEING CONCEALED.
I asked him if I could read it for myself and, looking offended, he replies, "No you can not. See, you're not the only one who can be obstinate". The chief goes on further, informing me that Sheriff Donnie is a buddy of his. He told me he would be sure to call him the next day and have my CHP revoked. Apparently this was unsuccessful as I have never been asked to relinquish my permit. Furthermore, even if I admitted guilt to the charge I would not have lost my CHP.
I ask for water and am given it, as well as a supervised restroom visit. Why they insisted on watching me pee I do not know, for I had already been fully searched to include handling of my genitals through my pants. I can no longer say that my girlfriend and my Dr. have had the privilege... This happened again during intake at the co. jail. If a TSA pat-down is a 5 on my scale of discomfort and intrusion, this would have to be a 9. Only to be bested by cavity exploration.
Eventually I am transported to jail along with some scumbag drunk who was peeing on cars in the parking garage.
After taking mugshots, fingerprints, tattoos being documented etc., I am placed in a holding cell. There are 6-8 guys sharing with me, one of whom is a man snoring on the floor who has pissed and crapped his pants.
After 7 hours inside the county jail, dealing with the sticky handset of a phone that is barely functional, a very good friend is able to post my $1,500 secured bond. By now it is around 3am, and remember that rehearsal dinner? I'm to be a groomsman in just a few short hours.
I take a cab back to crabtree's parking deck to pick up my car, and after the cabbie drops me off I take 10 or so good photos of the entrance I used, next to my car. There is only one policy posted and it is for smoking inside. This is shown clearly in the photos I have large glossy prints of.
Today was the 4th appearance in court. Finally the officer showed up, so we could get started, just 5 months later. The DA was able to speak with the officer about this case for the first time, and did so at least in part in front of my attorney. According to my attorney,the officer informed the DA that he had asked me to leave and I had refused. Ok, so this is the kind of guy I'm dealing with? Whether his misrecollection was malicious or due simply to incompetence I don't know. But I am inclined to believe the former since the discrepancy was gross and obviously against my favor.
Furthermore, the face of the original charge sheet (written by this same officer) describes my alleged offense as: NCGS 14-223, Resist, Delay, or Obstruct a public officer while discharging or attempting to discharge a duty of his office. Then in the space below it elaborates as follows: "Failure to provide ID, failure to provide CC permit."
The DA offers to plea my class II 14-223 R,D,O charge down to a class III misdemeanor of trespassing. I said thanks but no thanks, I didn't do that (trespass) either.
The arresting officer goes back to his seat, and my lawyer plays the recording of the arrest for the DA in a back room somewhere. They come back out and I get a thumbs up. Apparently the DA was not inclined to allow the officer to perjure himself on the stand, and my charge was dismissed immediately after reviewing my evidence.
My attorney had prepared a form to be signed by the judge, so that after ~5 months my handgun would be returned to me. I am supposed to meet both officers around 6pm this evening for the exchange. My Gadsden Flag shirt is already sported, right on top of the one permanently etched into my skin.
Look, I want to be clear about why I am NOT sharing this. I do not want any Monday morning quarterbacking, chastising, or admonishments for any detail or even the sum of my actions and decisions. You can keep that crap to yourself. Last time I was willing to share an unfavorable LEO interaction I was stuck defending my "situational awareness", since the cops were allowed to grab me with force. You handle things however you see fitting and I'll do the same.
I AM going out on a limb and sharing because I feel my very painful experience may help other OCDO members. Jail, and the experience as a whole, has been MUCH worse than I ever imagined it would be. But I would stand my ground just as adamantly tomorrow as I did in December. If you are ever faced with a similar circumstance you may, unfortunately, have to weigh for yourself whether or not this is something you'd be willing to go through. It could have gone much better, or much worse. If you don't learn anything else from this, RECORD YOUR NON-CONSENSUAL INTERACTIONS WITH THE POLICE!!!!!!! If you have children to pick up or other such commitments your choices may understandably be limited.
Only just having been exonerated, I have not made any decisions on how or if I will pursue reparations, but no one has apologized to me yet.
I would also ask that no one "do anything" on my behalf, or in light of hearing this account. What I mean is phone calls or emails. I can handle this, but if you have some sound advice post it, or PM me. I have been very careful not to give the parties involved a piece of my mind so far, and would ask the same of those reading this.
Regarding ID during a "Terry Stop" (I do not recognize my initial encounter with these officers as a legitimate Terry Stop, BTW)
http://policehelp.net/pubs/2004/rollcallv3n7.pdf
http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/...ceChief/PoliceAttorney/Documents/04MayJun.pdf - - See item #3 on the contents list
And here is one on the charge of RDO:
http://policehelp.net/pubs/ralph/RandRjune1_05.pdf
**The above opinions are written by very well studied ADVOCATES FOR LEO's**
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