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DOJ Admin Code

BROKENSPROKET

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Trempealeau County
Apparently I don't either. Is the purpose of administrative code to interpret a law as they see fit? That seems to be what is happening within WIDOJ.




To "document must make reference to administrative code"...?

It is obvious that you and others have not read the information I have posted. Whatever rules the DOJ drafts, goes through the Wisconsin Legisglative Council and then the Joint Committee on Review of Adminstrative Rules, where such rules are scrutinized againt legislative intent.

You and others implythat the DOJ is doing whatever they wish. Which is untrue. They may not be doing what you and others wish, but they are not doing whatever they wish as what they do has to be reviewed by the WLC and approved by the JCRAR.

All you DOJ haters, go back to post #46 and read what I have cited and follow the links. You don't have to like it, but you cannot say that the DOJ is not following legisalative intent or that they are violatinng the law. The truth is they are not doing what YOU want.
 

neoinarien

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May 17, 2009
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At Armed Badger, Neo signs his post with a reference to Wolff & Sonderhouse, LLP. There is such a firm, and it is across from the courthouse. There are only two attorneys on the Wolff website, neither named "Tom". State Bar records, though, list an Atty. Tom ***** practicing at the firm.

One of the partners in the firm is an attorney who does have ties to DOJ and may well be participating in the rulemaking discussion.

To be sure, anybody could post and pretend all of the above...but how likely is that? I think Neo's for real, and I think his info is real, too.


I WILL say that my source is not a firm mate.

Again, I welcome people to call the main office line and ask for me, or just stop by (I suggest making an appointment first to guarantee that I'll not be in court or busy).
 

neoinarien

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Apparently I don't either. Is the purpose of administrative code to interpret a law as they see fit? That seems to be what is happening within WIDOJ.

Perhaps you can explain how they go from this:



To "document must make reference to administrative code"...?

I have to be careful what I say because I don't want to dispense legal advice on line (for two reasons: first, my malpractice carrier would have an infarction and I get to watch my rates shoot through the roof (unless someone wanted to cover the difference upfront? ;) ) and two, I can't risk establishing (See, SCR 20) attorney client relationship because then things get really complicated). I can do my best to answer non-legal questions though.

I follow your frustration.

I'm copy and pasting my response from the companion thread in ArmedBadger.com to give you an example of how these seeming leaps can happen.

___________________________
This gets things gummed up with a discussion of the administrative code.

There are many ways on how to explain the meaning, role, function and development of the administrative code. I suppose the easiest one is to say that whereas the legislature develops the big picture and sets the parameters, the admin code nails down the details.

It is still binding law, even though it is authored (largely) by people who may be often referred to as bureaucrats. This does not in and of itself, make it 'bad law': it has its own important function to play.

The biggest way this can get into trouble is where the admin code gets out in front of the capital L law created by the legislature.

So, for instance...

Not to put words in the DOJ's mouth, but there are a few hypothetical examples that come to mind which would explain (at least to me) their desire for a course length minimum.

The Law calls for someone completing (amongst other options to get licensed to fulfill the training requirement) a safety course or firearm training course. It is reasonable (or so the argument may go) to believe that the legislature intended for people to receive a reasonable baseline within industry standards amount of training in either safety, use or both. It is probably not disputed that you need more than 5 minutes to cover this. Same would go for 10 minutes. Probably even an hour. So where does one draw the line, now that we start to enlarge a prospective requirement?

Well, if I were in the DOJ or were tasked with solving this, I would look at other courses out there. How long is, more or less, the industry standard? I've been to one course and it did run more than four hours. Without questions and pausing for breaks, etc, it probably could have been condensed to a briskly paced four hours though. I'll bet the same is true of other reputable course offerings from industry professionals.

That is likely where such a time requirement is coming from, and at least one example (to play the hypothetical game) of how they could arrive at a number (whatever that number may be).

I'm not defending the number, the thought process, etc. Only trying to explain how these things often times work (both from a drafting perspective AND from a legal review perspective).
_____________________
 

neoinarien

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It is obvious that you and others have not read the information I have posted. Whatever rules the DOJ drafts, goes through the Wisconsin Legisglative Council and then the Joint Committee on Review of Adminstrative Rules, where such rules are scrutinized againt legislative intent.

You and others implythat the DOJ is doing whatever they wish. Which is untrue. They may not be doing what you and others wish, but they are not doing whatever they wish as what they do has to be reviewed by the WLC and approved by the JCRAR.

All you DOJ haters, go back to post #46 and read what I have cited and follow the links. You don't have to like it, but you cannot say that the DOJ is not following legisalative intent or that they are violatinng the law. The truth is they are not doing what YOU want.


+1
 

Packfanatic

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Joined
Jul 26, 2011
Messages
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Location
North of Madison
Exactly

it is obvious that you and others have not read the information i have posted. Whatever rules the doj drafts, goes through the wisconsin legisglative council and then the joint committee on review of adminstrative rules, where such rules are scrutinized againt legislative intent.

You and others implythat the doj is doing whatever they wish. Which is untrue. They may not be doing what you and others wish, but they are not doing whatever they wish as what they do has to be reviewed by the wlc and approved by the jcrar.

All you doj haters, go back to post #46 and read what i have cited and follow the links. You don't have to like it, but you cannot say that the doj is not following legisalative intent or that they are violatinng the law. The truth is they are not doing what you want.

i +1000
 

mrjam2jab

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Apr 26, 2009
Messages
769
Location
Levittown, Pennsylvania, USA
re: NRA certificates

I'd like to know what out-of-state people are expected to do, since their instructor likely has no clue what the WI requirements are or will be? Find someone in WI who can add whatever the DOJ comes up with? Write it on the certificate themselves?


Not just out of staters. There is no "time constraint" in the Act that says "training must have been taken within X years of application for carry permit." So say a WI resident who has taken, for example, NRA Basic 5 years ago. The instructor who proctored that class is no longer around...moved away, died, etc. This certificate is no good for this applicant? He has to take another class?
 

sheller

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
45
Location
milton, wi
It is obvious that you and others have not read the information I have posted. Whatever rules the DOJ drafts, goes through the Wisconsin Legisglative Council and then the Joint Committee on Review of Adminstrative Rules, where such rules are scrutinized againt legislative intent.

You and others implythat the DOJ is doing whatever they wish. Which is untrue. They may not be doing what you and others wish, but they are not doing whatever they wish as what they do has to be reviewed by the WLC and approved by the JCRAR.

All you DOJ haters, go back to post #46 and read what I have cited and follow the links. You don't have to like it, but you cannot say that the DOJ is not following legisalative intent or that they are violatinng the law. The truth is they are not doing what YOU want.

Thank you very much for the no spin post.
 

LaBomba

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2011
Messages
118
Location
Tosa
Not just out of staters. There is no "time constraint" in the Act that says "training must have been taken within X years of application for carry permit." So say a WI resident who has taken, for example, NRA Basic 5 years ago. The instructor who proctored that class is no longer around...moved away, died, etc. This certificate is no good for this applicant? He has to take another class?

Great Question, MrJam2Jab. If NRA Basic meets DOJ's criteria -- whatever they wind up being -- what would possibly be gained by having every NRA Basic grad get a WI-specific certificate?
 

HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
2,772
Location
Terra, Sol
You are too generous. Next time I'll add a little more crazy. Maybe something about the Revolution.. Watering the tree and all that.

:lol:
 
M

McX

Guest
and Zombies, we need more zombies!

http://images.wikia.com/bungie/images/4/4a/Successful_troll.gif[/img]
 

BROKENSPROKET

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Messages
2,199
Location
Trempealeau County
I really don't make this **** up:

Paul,

You may want to consult with an attorney.

I believe that:

If you are aggrieved because your application was denied because your training certificate was not approved based on an Adminstrative Rule and you believe it should have been approved based on the Adminstrative Rule, then the following statute applies.

175.60(14m) APPEALS TO THE CIRCUIT COURT. (a) An individual aggrieved by any action by the department denying an application for, or suspending or revoking, a license under this section, may appeal directly to the circuit court of the county in which the individual resides without regard to whether the individual has sought review under the process established in sub. (14g).

But if you are sueing the DOJ challenging the legality of the Adminstrative Rule which was used to deny your application, then the following statute applies:

801.50(3) Except as provided in this subsection, all actions in which the sole defendant is the state, any state board or commission, or any state officer, employee, or agent in an official capacity shall be venued in Dane County unless another venue is specifically authorized by law. All actions relating to the validity or invalidity of a rule shall be venued as provided in s. 227.40 (1).

IF SB117 gets passed, then you could choose any county in the state as a venue under 801.50(3).

Again, I suggest you consult an attorney. I could be wrong, but I do not believe that I am.
 
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