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Hey Look Kids! More Scranton PD Idiocy

jahwarrior

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today was a pretty beautiful day, was it not? i''d been out today, to walk the dog, walk to the store for a drink, and just to walk. my brother got a call from the bank earlier, and he remembered he needed to change some information regarding his account. so, i decided to walk with him. he with his .357, me with my 1911.

he'd carried openly to his bank before, as have i, and never did a teller or bank manager ever take issue with it. it's Community Bank, if anyone's interested. we walked up Railroad Street, then turned right on Lackawanna Avenue. once he was done, we walked back. halfway down Railroad, we stopped at a gas station/car wash to buy cigarettes.

on our way down the street, we noticed a patrol car slowing past us. we watched as he parked, got out, and approached us. his name is Officer Uher.

in an instant, we were both surrounded by at least 6 uniforms. all, except for Uher, constantly changed position, so i could never get a clear look at their name tags. one of them, a red faced man in his late 40's, was particularly foul mouthed from the start, before either of us opened our mouths. for brevity, and because i can't tell who said what, i'll list the lines of bullshit we had thrown at us.

1. someone called about two guys with guns.
2. they have to investigate MWAG calls.
3. we are required to show ID if we have a gun.
4. they are within their rights to demand ID, to ascertain we are not felons.
5. we are assholes, looking for attention.
6. we are little boys trying to be big shots.
7. we are likely to shoot ourselves in the foot.
8. we are busting their balls for no reason.
9. they have the right to arrest us for failing to provide ID.
10. they are within their rights to take our LTCFs, send them to the sheriff, and have them revoked.
11. they can confiscate our guns, and we'll never get them back.
12. we are huge assholes, because showing ID is not such a big deal.

13.....this is the best one. the most awesomely, superbad, funky fresh best part. i said little throughout this exchange. every once in awhile, i'd interject with a statement of fact, citing a statute, or saying "whatever." when 2 of them insisted that i must have and show ID when asked for it, i reminded them that the Lackawanna County DA, Andy Jarbola, made a public statement, which was printed in the Scranton Times, saying although it's strange, people are not obligated to provide ID.

they, in their infinite wisdom, informed us that he was incorrect.

"yeah, because a beat cop knows state law better than the DA, who went to law school for 100 years."

i gave them my name, spelled it for them slowly, and told them they could call it in and check my identity. some of them continued to berate us, using foul language.

i want to go on record by saying that i never, throughout the exchange, used foul language. indeed, i barely spoke at all. i stood there, crossed arms, defiant, and stoic.

my brother, who stood behind me, smiled at them. one asked for his driver's ID. "sure, no problem," he said, grinning. the officer noticed his LTCF next to it.

"is that your concealed permit?"

"no. it's my license to carry a firearm."

"can i see it?"

"no," he said, closing his wallet.

the officer sneered. "******* asshole."

i also reminded them that i had had this problem last summer, and after dealing with Lt. Thomas, i was assured that this sort of thing wouldn't happen again. i suggested they contact him. they mocked us, and said, "riiiiight."

i heard my name come back over their walkies, followed by a numerical code. i don't remember the numbers, but they all heard it, and just as soon as they surrounded us, they all abruptly turned around, and left, uttering vulgarities.

my biggest gripe was having half of them with their hands on their guns. that, and the fact that i was hungry, and was on my way to Burger King. their Garden Salads are ******* deeeeeeeelish.
__________________
 

Dreamer

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Where was you rvoice recorder? A copy of all that "blue" language would be a nice addition to these officer's service records as part of the official complaint, I'm sure.

Or even better, it would be a DELIGHTFUL addition to the next City Council Meeting...

Glad it all ended without anything more than some foul language and bruise dignity. Hopefully you'll have better luck next time you decide to take a stroll.
 

Citizen

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I am not a lawyer. Sounds to me like you were illegally detained.

Compare whathappened to youwith this text from US vs Mendenhall (red emphasis by Citizen):

We conclude that a person has been "seized" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment only if, in view of all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person would have believed that he was not free to leave. Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure, even where the person did not attempt to leave, would be the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled. See Terry v. Ohio, supra at 19, n. 16; Dunaway v.New York, 442 U.S. 200, 207, and n. 6; 3 W. LaFave, Search and Seizure 53-55 (1978). In the absence of some such evidence, otherwise inoffensive contact between a member of the public and the police cannot, as a matter of law, amount to a seizure of that person.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0446_0544_ZO.html

The passage does not mention it, but I should think hands on weapons while circling like a pack of predators sizing up wounded prey would do it.

That your guns were not seized "for officer safety" all but guarantees they did not have genuine RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) for a detention. You and I both know that, given the behavior they did exhibit, they would not have passed up any legal excuse to seize your guns.

While I'm not criticizing your personal taste in your biggest gripe being their hands on their guns,my biggest gripe would be the detention and harrassment offree men by government thugs with a personal antipathy to the exercise ofa basic human right.

I wouldtalk to a lawyer.
 

jahwarrior

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Citizen wrote:
I am not a lawyer. Sounds to me like you were illegally detained.

Compare whathappened to youwith this text from US vs Mendenhall (red emphasis by Citizen):

We conclude that a person has been "seized" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment only if, in view of all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person would have believed that he was not free to leave. Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure, even where the person did not attempt to leave, would be the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled. See Terry v. Ohio, supra at 19, n. 16; Dunaway v.New York, 442 U.S. 200, 207, and n. 6; 3 W. LaFave, Search and Seizure 53-55 (1978). In the absence of some such evidence, otherwise inoffensive contact between a member of the public and the police cannot, as a matter of law, amount to a seizure of that person.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0446_0544_ZO.html

The passage does not mention it, but I should think hands on weapons while circling like a pack of predators sizing up wounded prey would do it.

That your guns were not seized "for officer safety" all but guarantees they did not have genuine RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) for a detention. You and I both know that, given the behavior they did exhibit, they would not have passed up any legal excuse to seize your guns.

While I'm not criticizing your personal taste in your biggest gripe being their hands on their guns,my biggest gripe would be the detention and harrassment offree men by government thugs with a personal antipathy to the exercise ofa basic human right.

I wouldtalk to a lawyer.
there is something in the works. i is a Cylon. i haz a plan.
 

Thundar

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Sterile OC is a beautiful thing.

Do you have the voice recording to send to the District Attorney? I am sure he would love to hear that he is incorrect.

BTW I always carry a "permit". When asked I pull out my pocket constitution with the 2A tabbed. Only happened twice in all my time of OCing, but quite effective.
 

Statkowski

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Ok!! 1971 movie starring Burt Lancaster. Saw it but can't figure out how it applies in this situation?????
Rancher pisses off Valdez big time, seriously violates his rights. When Valdez gets his chit together, he puts the word out to the rancher, "Valdez is coming." All the rancher had to do was admit he made a mistake, but he didn't. In the end, at great cost, he does.

Here we have Scranton's PD (the rancher) seriously violating the rights of an OCer (Valdez). Right now that OCer (Valdez) is getting his chit together.

"Valdez is coming."
 

Deanimator

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jahwarrior72 wrote:
okay, both references are lost on me. and, i'm not that young, so....
"Ulzana's Raid", some of my ancestors get tired of starving on an Apache reservation and decide to leave and have a little "fun". They catch some cavalrymen and being the whimsical sort, end up playing catch with the liver of one of them. They come across a farmer and fearing that he's suffering from hypothermia, build a small fire between his legs.

Burt Lancaster is the cavalry scout sent out with a naive young lieutenant to catch them.
 

jahwarrior

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irritation.

it's okay to talk about this now, because i consulted my attorney. long story short, he said it would been better if i'd been thrown to the ground, cuffed, and been disarmed, because then i'd have a solid case. since they never laid a hand on me, i really can't prove anything. my lawyer scolded me a bit, for not giving my ID, but he knows why i didn't. he's just concerned because, "look, your hispanic...the police here are NOT your friend. i get what you're doing, but you need to consider that the average cop here sees a drug dealer or gangbanger when he looks at you, not a guy who is knowledgeable about the Constitution, or a guy just minding his business."

he said the most i could do is file a complaint privately, even though it won't go anywhere. i'm doing it anyway, so at least there's a written record of the incident, in my own words.
:cuss::banghead:
 

Deanimator

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jahwarrior72 wrote:
irritation.

it's okay to talk about this now, because i consulted my attorney. long story short, he said it would been better if i'd been thrown to the ground, cuffed, and been disarmed, because then i'd have a solid case. since they never laid a hand on me, i really can't prove anything. my lawyer scolded me a bit, for not giving my ID, but he knows why i didn't. he's just concerned because, "look, your hispanic...the police here are NOT your friend. i get what you're doing, but you need to consider that the average cop here sees a drug dealer or gangbanger when he looks at you, not a guy who is knowledgeable about the Constitution, or a guy just minding his business."

he said the most i could do is file a complaint privately, even though it won't go anywhere. i'm doing it anyway, so at least there's a written record of the incident, in my own words.
:cuss::banghead:
Seriously, get yourself a voice recorder that's small enough to never be left behind.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=sandisk+sansa+c250&hl=en&cid=8153617906367778141&sa=title#p
 

aadvark

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File for The Federal Lawsuit insisting on Constitutional Violations of your 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendment Rights.

Furthermore, Pennsylvania is not a Stop-and-ID State.

Post Secondary: Scranton is Pennsylvania's primere PROGRESSIVE CITY!

Do not believe me..., just look at their Website:http://www.scrantonpa.gov/
 

riverrat10k

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Jah, I have enjoyed your posts over time and admire your proven ballsiness.

As "Ed" from the Virginia forum told me at the General Assembly when I mentioned the compact voice recorder on a lanyard around his neck, "If THIS is on (pointing to gun), then THIS is on (voice recorder).

To each his own, just a suggestion. I know from previous posts you have been hassled more than some, maybe because of your "ethnic" looks. Keep up the good fight!
 
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