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NYPD officers aquitted after shooting unarmed man 50 times

asforme

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I'm not going to say officers should't shot when they perceive a threat, but at the same time I cannot unequivocally say that I would absolutely freeze when someone says too (whether they identified themselves as police is questionable).

What I am seeing is that if I ever decide to be a criminal, all I need to do is shout "FREEZE, POLICE" and I have a good chance even if my victim is armed.
 

Sa45auto

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:
Again, there are and always will be some folks who have NO problem with the use of deadly force to ensure everyone else abides by their wishes.
Me? I'd never dream of it. You? Obviously, you revel in it.

I am not sure who the "You" is in your above quote, but just so you know....The next to last thing I would ever want to do is use deadly force on anyone, BUT the very last thing I would want to do is stand by and do nothing while someone I loved , or even an unknown innocent person was hurt or killed, while I did nothing.

Would I use deadly force? As fast as I could, as stated above.
 

LEO 229

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Sa45auto wrote:
mark edward marchiafava wrote:
Again, there are and always will be some folks who have NO problem with the use of deadly force to ensure everyone else abides by their wishes.
Me? I'd never dream of it. You? Obviously, you revel in it.

I am not sure who the "You" is in your above quote, but just so you know....The next to last thing I would ever want to do is use deadly force on anyone, BUT the very last thing I would want to do is stand by and do nothing while someone I loved , or even an unknown innocent person was hurt or killed, while I did nothing.

Would I use deadly force? As fast as I could, as stated above.
Agreed.
 

Pointman

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I don't have a problem with people suggesting the officers discussed in this thread may have used excessive force. In the past officers have used excessive force, we know that, we've see it on TV. I do have a problem with painting the majority of officers as murderers. Officers have an inherently dangerous job, and bad guys shoot at them for little if any reason, and on a regular basis.

Snipped from: http://www.forcesciencenews.com/home/detail.html?serial=91
Bold is added for skim reading.

A troupe of actors from a local theater, representing a diversity of races, sexes, ages, and attire, were videotaped depicting subjects at a furniture store location. They performed specifically prescribed reactions as if interrupted by an officer responding to a purported robbery-in-progress, a burglar alarm activation, or a possible mugging-in-progress.

Using a mix of players, clothing, and reactions, 80 different scenarios were taped. These were then projected in random order on a laser-based IES Interactive Training MILO system. Participating officers, also diverse as to race, gender, age, experience, agency affiliation, and assignment, then were randomly exposed, one at a time, to 3 different scenarios with 3 different outcomes: a suspect who intends to surrender empty-handed, a suspect who intends to surrender with a non-weapon object (cell phone, flashlight, police ID wallet) in hand, and a subject determined to shoot.

All scenarios were taped in low-light conditions, to "inject more ambiguity into the situations" and to reflect the fact that more than 70% of police shootings of unarmed subjects occur in settings with unfavorable illumination.

"Realistic uncertainties like officers regularly encounter on the street were built into all the scenarios," Aveni explains. Officers were told that the robbery-in-progress report, for example, had come via a 911 hang-up; no further details available, including no description of the offender and no information on whether a weapon is involved. When the participating officer "arrives" at the scene, viewing things from the camera's perspective, an unidentified subject bursts out of the front door and starts to run away.

When an officer responds to the burglar alarm, he or she spots a subject trying to crowbar a side door. The subject drops the bar, eliminating the only potential weapon-that's visible, at least.

In the possible mugging scenario, officers were told only that they are doing business checks in an industrial park at 0100 hours. Yelling that suggests a "verbal altercation" is heard. The camera leads the participating officer around a visual obstruction, where he or she then sees one individual pushing another against a wall; again, no explanation immediately available.

Officers stood about 15 feet away from the action. They were told to react to what they saw on the screen as they would on the street. Most immediately issued loud verbal commands: "Police! Don't move!" or "Show me your hands!" or both. In each scenario, the subject "responded" by standing with back to the officer, hands out of sight at waist level. "This added to the 'threat ambiguity' of each situation," Aveni says.

Each subject had been coached to look back over his or her shoulder at least once during the encounter, as if taking a "target glance" at the participating officer. Then, unexpectedly, the subject abruptly turned to the left, toward the officer. Hands were kept at waist level at least through the first half-turn, and then they moved up somewhat as the turn was completed.

Subjects who were armed (1/3 of the scenarios) fired a .38 Special S&W M640 revolver, loaded with full-flash Hollywood blanks. The participating LEOs were warned that if someone on screen shot at them first, a modified paintball apparatus beside the simulator screen would also begin firing foam-rubber balls at them. "This factor was injected into the study in the hope that it might diminish participant apathy or complacency," Aveni explains.

The scenarios lasted, at maximum, about 30 seconds apiece. All the "confrontations" were videotaped to allow minute analysis later.

RESULTS. Aveni found that of the 307 LEOs participating, 38%-nearly 4 in every 10-shot unarmed subjects depicted in the scenarios (in all, 117 such subjects got shot). Some officers shot more than one suspect who turned out not to have a weapon. Carefully tabulating and analyzing details of the officers' actions to illuminate the percentage, he reached several important conclusions:

What didn't matter. "No significant correlation existed between the officers' actions and the suspects' race," Aveni says. "Likewise, there was no significant correlation between what the officers did and their own gender, age, experience, or type of jurisdiction in which they worked-urban, suburban, or rural.

What did matter. The strongest correlation was found between the subjects' actions and the officers' decision to shoot. Also significant, though of somewhat lesser influence, was the type of crime believed to be involved in the scenario and 2 attributes of the subject-age and attire.

Aveni explains: "Officers were more likely to shoot in the robbery scenario than in the possible mugging and more likely to shoot in the mugging scenario than in the apparent burglary-in-progress."

The nature of the crime involved, he says, clearly affected the officers' "vigilance and situational readiness." Responding to the reported robbery, they were more likely to have their sidearm drawn quickly and pointed at the suspect when verbal commands were issued, compared to the spontaneously discovered possible mugging and the alarm activation call (a frequent false run in police work) where their readiness was "measurably worse."

Also, officers were "more likely to shoot when the subject was young and also when the subject was wearing scruffy 'punk' clothing rather than 'business' attire."

Predictably, officers overwhelmingly shot at suspects when suspects shot at them. But many also fired "preemptively," before a weapon could actually be discerned, resulting in rounds being delivered to unarmed subjects. "The major influence here was how the subject behaved," Aveni says. Particularly involved was what he calls "the acting quotient."

Acting quotient. All suspects in the scenarios followed the same choreographed pattern of movement: With their back to the participating officer, they initially kept their hands at waist level, glanced over their shoulder, then turned without warning to face the officer, concealing their hands until well into the turn.

Aveni had not anticipated that the actors would perform with different levels of energy and conviction. Yet some performed more "convincingly" than others, and that proved to be a key component of the research.

"The subjects most likely to get shot," Aveni says, "displayed a high-level 'acting quotient.' They performed with unchoreographed nuances. That is, they made their moves with vigorous intensity and speed, versus tepidly. They kept their hands low, rather than high. They tended to crouch partially or fully as they turned instead of remaining upright, and they fully or partially clenched their hands, rather than keeping them open."

Such energetic movement in a setting where a serious crime appears to be involved "is much less likely to be viewed as innocuous," Aveni says. "A suspect's intensity had much to do with whether an officer felt compelled to pull the trigger before the circumstances became manifest. It became one of the most reliable predictors of whether a person got shot."

Time pressure. For their own safety, officers had little time to react. Even with "tepid" movements, the suspects' hands came around "almost always too fast to determine" the true nature of any object being held or whether the hands were, in fact, empty, Aveni says.

As the hands typically swung through an arc of 4-5 feet, the officers' eye movement inevitably lagged behind, so that the action was perceived "as a blur or a smear of motion. Judgment about what, if anything, the suspects held could not be made with certainty until the hand movement stopped. When a suspect had a gun, that was too late."

With an officer behind the reactionary curve, Aveni says, "the lag time can allow the suspect to fire one or more shots before the officer can shoot back." Indeed, in the study armed suspects were able to shoot first 61% of the time.

From a critical juncture in a scenario, an officer typically had "1/3 of a second or less" to decide whether to use deadly force or risk being shot, Aveni claims.

"Those officers who managed to shoot armed suspects before the suspect was able to fire seemed to have elected to use deadly force before it could be clearly determined that the suspect did, in fact, have a handgun. The officers decided to fire either before the suspect started to turn or at the earliest possible moment turning was perceived.

"This tends to explain why a significant percentage of unarmed subjects, who intended to surrender with or without innocuous objects in hand, also were shot."

All unarmed role players in the scenarios were told to culminate their movements in the "surrender" position: hands held at sternum height or above, palms facing forward, fingers pointed "mostly upward."

Aveni reports that "92% of the unarmed subjects who were shot during the study were in the 'surrender position' " at the time the officers' shots reached them.

Lewinski offers some pertinent observations. First, he says, "time pressure is notorious for significantly increasing errors in judgment. That's true not just in officer-involved shootings but also in activities that are not life-threatening, such as fingerprint analysis. As time tightens, the incidence of false-positive and false-negative decisions expands."

Time plays into these situations in another critical way, too, Lewinski explains. "A passage of time necessarily occurs between the instant an officer makes a decision to shoot and the instant his rounds impact. Force Science research has clearly established that if a suspect is moving, his position will be different when a bullet strikes than it was when the decision was made to shoot.

"This can account for subjects being shot in the surrender posture. They weren't necessarily in those 'no-shoot' postures when the officer's shooting decision was made."

Aveni's study further revealed "a common tendency" for officers to continue shooting once they started. Aveni offers 2 explanations: 1) "it takes time to 'apply the brakes' of a neuromuscular response" like firing a gun. Studies by FSRC have shown that officers, on average, fire 2 or more shots after they've received a visual cue that shooting should end; 2) the scenarios Aveni used did not have a branching capability, so the suspects did not fall when "hit." Thus, "any officer trained to 'fire until your foe falls' would likely continue shooting."

Lewinski elaborates. "In the midst of shooting to save their lives, officers often can't see where their bullets are striking. They rely on highly detectable visual cues that the subject has ceased being a threat, such as the suspect dramatically thrusting his or her arms overhead or collapsing.

"Even then, officers often will continue to shoot because of the perception-reaction lag time, resulting in bullets hitting the body as the suspect falls."

Agency differences. Marked differences in performance were evident among the 6 departments that participated in Aveni's study. At the "highest-frequency" end of the scale, nearly half the officers from one agency shot unarmed suspects. The lowest frequency was compiled by an agency whose participating officers shot unarmed suspects 24% of the time. The rest ranged from 39% to 44%.

"The question will undoubtedly arise: 'What noted differences were there between the agency with the lowest frequency of mistake-of-fact shootings and the agency with the highest frequency?' " Aveni observes, noting that both these agencies patrol urban jurisdictions.

"The answer, simply put: 'It was a difference in training.' "
 

Deanimator

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:
What you have are less-than-perfect humans trying to create an unachievable Utopia based on a way of life not intended for mankind. Doomed from the get go.

What I see in this case is bad judgement on both sides.

I don't see malice on the part of the police, at least before the fact. If the police lied about hearing someone say there was a gun, or lied about identifying themselves, that's after the fact CYI. I don't THINK they set out to commit a crime, much less kill someone.

At this point, I'm reluctant to take the word of either the cops or the shooting victims at face value.

I've already stated how I think things COULD have happened. However with unreliable witnesses on both sides, it's nearly impossible to determine the truth. In a criminal trial in such circumstances, the default outcome is "not guilty". The cops don't have to prove they're innocent. The prosecution has to prove they're guilty. As pointed out previously, that's why OJ's free to search the golf courses of this nation for the "real killers".

Personally, I think that my theory of what happened is correct. Fortunately for the accused, even a preponderance of the evidence isn't enough to convict, which there doesn't appear to be. I don't see there being enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. It isn't enough for the accused to have done the crime. The prosecution has to PROVE it. Neither Marcia Clark nor the prosecutor in this case accomplished that.
 

deepdiver

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:
What you have are less-than-perfect humans trying to create an unachievable Utopia based on a way of life not intended for mankind. Doomed from the get go.
I'll agree with that. Essentially what that says to me is that most LEOs, who are just as fallably human as the rest of us, do the best they can to make the right decisions. Just like anyone else in high stress situations, be it citizens defending themselves from a perceived life threatening situation, our military in a fire fight, a driver in a panic maneuver situation, sometimes humans make horrible mistakes despite no desire to do so. Some things really are horrible consequences of the best and most honest of intentions and sometimes people die. It is the nature of the world.
 

LEO 229

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Pointman wrote:
I don't have a problem with people suggesting the officers discussed in this thread may have used excessive force. Officers frequently use excessive force, we know that, we see it on TV all the time. I do have a problem with painting the majority of officers as murderers. Officers have an inherently dangerous job, and bad guys shoot at them for little if any reason, and on a regular basis.

In the dark and especially with changing light, you can't wait to determine if a person is armed and then confirm they're pointing a gun at you, as there's an overwhelming chance you'll be dead. You have to make a decision based on experience, which is the only thing you have available.

Snipped from: http://www.forcesciencenews.com/home/detail.html?serial=91
...Snipped


Excellent find.

People need to understand thatyourmovements, gestures, and the manner in how you carry yourself all get combined into a threat scale. The police an obvious threat to the bad guys. The bad guy WILL KILL the cop so they can run. The police only want to catch the bad guy and put him in jail. Deadly force is not at the top of the list to accomplish this.

When you make movements that the police interpret as a danger.... they have a split second to react and take action. Sometimes unarmed people do get shot and that is a shame..... But it is often due to the actions of that person who ignores the police or does something to cause it to happen.

As was the car of a man believed to be obtaining a gun to take back into the club. He was told to stop and kept reaching. At least.... this is my take on it.

In any case... it is sad he was killed. A long time ago you knew not to assault or kill cops. They did not have to worry as much as they do today. People will spit, kick, shoot at, and stab them at the drop of a hat. Not because they are jack booted thugs wanting to violate your rights....butbecause the bad guys do not care and want to escape.
 

LEO 229

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deepdiver wrote:
mark edward marchiafava wrote:
What you have are less-than-perfect humans trying to create an unachievable Utopia based on a way of life not intended for mankind. Doomed from the get go.
I'll agree with that. Essentially what that says to me is that most LEOs, who are just as fallably human as the rest of us, do the best they can to make the right decisions. Just like anyone else in high stress situations, be it citizens defending themselves from a perceived life threatening situation, our military in a fire fight, a driver in a panic maneuver situation, sometimes humans make horrible mistakes despite no desire to do so. Some things really are horrible consequences of the best and most honest of intentions and sometimes people die. It is the nature of the world.
So true.... When the lion opens his mouth and starts to make motions like he wants to eat you.... do you wait till he bites or do you drop him in his tracks???

Cops are human and can make mistakes. You put any citizen in the same situations not knowing what the outcome would be and I guarantee they would either run or empty that gun.

The cops actually walk in that lions cage while citizens go on safari when they want. They are not required to walk up and face the lion but it is always an option. There are times when the lion just shows up and you have to do what you think is best.
 
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then stay the hell away from the lion's den.
AGAIN, since I am obviously not your typical citizen, No, I would NOT have gunned anyone down. First off, I wouldn't have followed him to his car, either.
Or, if you're a cop, you walk INTO the lion's den and then wonder why you get mauled.
 

LEO 229

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:
But when a CIVILIAN does the exact same thing, are the results the same?
If a "citizen" not CIVILIAN.... was to try and stop a manin a car allegedlythere to retrievea gun shoots him 32 times..... Of course that will look bad.

The citizen has no authority to command the man to stop. Until the man actually commits a crime the citizen cannot step in to make any type ofarrest. The police can in the course of their duties make a subject stop and determine what he is planning to do.

The people do not expector not wantsome unknowncitizen playing the roll of a cop. This is actually viewed as a vigilantly and often times end up badly. Best of intentions but screw up the case royally.

No matter how noble your intentions might be.... I believe the people feel better having a trailed professional handle it. Someone that knows exactly what to do and it less likely to make errors in judgement.
 
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LOL, you remind me of my oldest daughter.
First mistake: you're ASSUMING he was there to retrieve a gun. One dead and two wounded sovereign citizens later, they're still searching for that damned elusive gun. Those must have been some damned stupid cops to not have a throw down gun, especially in NYC. The cops made the same mistake YOU made: he WAS going to retrieve a gun. The man was talking trash and the cops (obviously) either ruled out that possibility and/or decided to be thugs anyway.
"Ends up badly?" Just how much more "badly" could it have been? Well, yea, the other two passengers could be just as dead as Sean. You're right, I'll give you that one. The rogue cops only killed one of the three, a citizen might have killed ALL THREE !!!
"Trained professional." :celebrate LOL, you're just too funny !! Weren't those the EXACT same words of the DEA dude in Florida, right before he shot a Glock 40 round into his OWN foot, in a SCHOOL, in front of a classroom full of kids? Yea, only the "elite" can handle situations.
It's not bad enough the "law enforcement" community (and it's cheering section) exists, but the citizens have to PAY for it. I'd rather do business with the mob.
 

asforme

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I know the details are kinda sketchy, but if the cops were following him out to his car, and had an expectation that he had a gun (illegal in NYC) wasn't there enough cause to arrest him outside the car and search the vehicle?

If they had enough evidence to convince themselves he had a gun when he was in the car to justify them shooting him, why did they not have enough evidence to make an arrest and search the car?
 

LEO 229

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asforme wrote:
I know the details are kinda sketchy, but if the cops were following him out to his car, and had an expectation that he had a gun (illegal in NYC) wasn't there enough cause to arrest him outside the car and search the vehicle?

If they had enough evidence to convince themselves he had a gun when he was in the car to justify them shooting him, why did they not have enough evidence to make an arrest and search the car?
They only had a reasonable suspicion to approach him. No probable cause to arrest.

If they arrested him OUTSIDE the car it is harder to get in the car and search it but not impossible.

Why he was allowed to get in his car before stopping him is unclear. I was no there and do not know how quickly things happened.

It seems they wanted to approach him while in the car so that way they could actually search the car for their safety thereby finding the gun.

But this is just my guess.
 

LEO 229

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:
LOL, you remind me of my oldest daughter.
...Snipped
You are getting to be a little strange.

Must be the swamp water down there.
 

imperialism2024

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LEO 229 wrote:
Excellent find.

People need to understand thatyourmovements, gestures, and the manner in how you carry yourself all get combined into a threat scale. The police an obvious threat to the bad guys. The bad guy WILL KILL the cop so they can run. The police only want to catch the bad guy and put him in jail. Deadly force is not at the top of the list to accomplish this.

When you make movements that the police interpret as a danger.... they have a split second to react and take action. Sometimes unarmed people do get shot and that is a shame..... But it is often due to the actions of that person who ignores the police or does something to cause it to happen.

As was the car of a man believed to be obtaining a gun to take back into the club. He was told to stop and kept reaching. At least.... this is my take on it.

In any case... it is sad he was killed. A long time ago you knew not to assault or kill cops. They did not have to worry as much as they do today. People will spit, kick, shoot at, and stab them at the drop of a hat. Not because they are jack booted thugs wanting to violate your rights....butbecause the bad guys do not care and want to escape.
Now see, you lost me at that point.

While I just talked about the amount of force before... this has moved into talking about the justification.

In this case, the LEOs were the ones who caused the whole incident, plain and simple. Well, ok, not that plain and simple. They had no business being there in the first place (find me where in the Constitution it denies the right to have sex for money), and then they further provoked him by following him out to the car and trying to apprehend him for no apparent reason.

No, it's not necessarily the fault of the LEOs. Granted, they all made errors in judgement, but the system that was put in place by our great leaders put them there in the first place. And through incidents like this, LEOs are essentially being forced to lower the public opinion of themselves. Basically, "tough on crime" politicians tell the police department to bust down doors in a neighborhood to find illegal marijuana plant growers, they do their job and bust down doors, someone pulls a gun on them and the LEOs shoot him, and then everyone in the neigborhood hates LEOs more than they already do. Outside of the guys who signed up to work BATFE or DEA, I firmly believe that the vast majority of LEOs don't want to violate rights, enough if their superiors put them in a position where they have are required to do so.
 
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