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Senate Bill 761: Lower pistol length definition to 26 inches

HKcarrier

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Mar 9, 2011
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michigan
So this is a new law, not the same one that was trying to do something similar only for jan 2012?



What will this law mean for my AK underfolder that is 26" in length while folded (maybe a smidge under to be honest)

I have a CPL, so can I still carry it? It actually meets the 26" threshold, so will I have to carry it with the RI60 proving it was registered before 2013? Since it meets the 26" threshold am I just good to go with nothing more?



Has anyone ever been pulled over with a mi pistol AR or Ak or shottie laying there or near you? HOw did that go?
 

MSG Laigaie

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I am building an AR platform pistol. To stay out of jail I did a bit of NFA research. I found that 23 inches is the BATFs magic number to conceal. If you are a pistol and 23" or under(OA), you are a concealable pistol. If you have the same weapon and you are 26.5" you are a "firearm" and you can do some neat things like a fwd pistol grip. The BATF thinks that over 23" can not be concealed. Go figure.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ys-new-ar-15-is-neither-a-pistol-nor-a-rifle/
 
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Michigander

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Having an AK under 26" folded is not the sort of thing you want to admit to in Michigan. Put an extended flash hider on it.


http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(t2...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-222


And here is an older but still apparently valid AG opinion from the tyrant Frank Kelly.

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/1980s/op06280.htm

Under 26" folded means illegal in Michigan. By federal law you're fine unless the stock is detached and the OAL is under 26", then it becomes "a weapon made from a rifle".

The exception would be an AK handgun which when originally manufactured had no stock, and a barrel at 16". (tac welding a flash hider, registered sound suppressor or other attachment to the barrel to make it 16" long before adding a stock will also satisfy the ATF and Michigan) Click in a stock, or maybe with an AK just cram the wood stock in and it'll friction lock. Then you instantly have a rifle by federal and state law. I'm not so sure about how it'd go if in rifle status you loaned it to someone, but I do know that it's what we're going to have available to us if this law passes. Also note that due to 922r, AK pistols don't need the certain number of US parts, but rifles do. So a conversion to a rifle necessitates 922r compliance.

The other 3 options I know of for this type of conversions will be Ruger Chargers with 10/22 barrels and Tapco stocks so that the unbolted T6 stock can pop right in and out, and semi auto MAC's and Uzi's with 16" carbine barrels shipped out, transfered and registered as pistols, and then when the stock is popped on, it becomes a rifle.

It would be especially important with this set up that the stocks be fixed types which are detached rather than folding so as to avoid breaking Michigan law.
 
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Michigander

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I am building an AR platform pistol. To stay out of jail I did a bit of NFA research. I found that 26 inches is the BATFs magic number to conceal. If you are a pistol and 26" or under(OA), you are a concealable pistol. If you have the same weapon and you are 26.5" you are a "firearm" and you can do some neat things like a fwd pistol grip. The BATF thinks that over 26" can not be concealed. Go figure.

Over 26", as far as I know is defined federally as a long gun, not a rifle. A "title 1 long gun" if I remember right. Here in Michigan, if this law goes through, it will basically just be treated as a rifle.

So, we'll have to forfeit any hopes of vertical fore grips with the weapons I'm describing, because while in pistol form, unless AOW registered, (which we could do if desired but few probably will) they will have to be under 26". The trick is getting a receiver short enough for the gun to be under 26" overall with a 16" barrel.

The nice thing about AR pistols is that with a longer spring tube some people use them as a stabilizing point on their cheek, so it's not a bad way to go either. The bad news with AR pistols is that if you want a registered one to convert into a rifle you'll also be swapping out the barrel to remain NFA compliant, since the platform is so long. :(
 
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Super Trucker

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Wayne County, MI.
Well... that sucks. Just another way to try to trip me up. How are people supposed to know all of this? It's not like every person is taught every law and is required to learn every new law and changed law that comes out. Just like when you didn't have to bring a handgun into the sherrifs office for inspection anymore. I walk in with mine and they're like "uuuhhh, you're not supposed to bring that in here." How was I supposed to know? I had to just the month before and I wasn't informed anything was changing.

I get e-mails from multiple sources when these type bills start. If you want to know about them you will.
MOC started a new legislative e-mail a few months back, MCRGO has one, MI Votes has one, just sign up and then read to your hearts content.

Just make sure when BS bills like this appear that you fight them because as you can see many of your fellow forum forum members are all for you losing your current gun rights. And these so called gun rights supporters are the ones calling their reps telling them to pass these anti gun bills.
 

HKcarrier

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Messages
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Location
michigan
Having an AK under 26" folded is not the sort of thing you want to admit to in Michigan. Put an extended flash hider on it.


http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(t2...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-222


And here is an older but still apparently valid AG opinion from the tyrant Frank Kelly.

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/1980s/op06280.htm

Under 26" folded means illegal in Michigan. By federal law you're fine unless the stock is detached and the OAL is under 26", then it becomes "a weapon made from a rifle".

The exception would be an AK handgun which when originally manufactured had no stock, and a barrel at 16". (tac welding a flash hider, registered sound suppressor or other attachment to the barrel to make it 16" long before adding a stock will also satisfy the ATF and Michigan) Click in a stock, or maybe with an AK just cram the wood stock in and it'll friction lock. Then you instantly have a rifle by federal and state law. I'm not so sure about how it'd go if in rifle status you loaned it to someone, but I do know that it's what we're going to have available to us if this law passes. Also note that due to 922r, AK pistols don't need the certain number of US parts, but rifles do. So a conversion to a rifle necessitates 922r compliance.

The other 3 options I know of for this type of conversions will be Ruger Chargers with 10/22 barrels and Tapco stocks so that the unbolted T6 stock can pop right in and out, and semi auto MAC's and Uzi's with 16" carbine barrels shipped out, transfered and registered as pistols, and then when the stock is popped on, it becomes a rifle.

It would be especially important with this set up that the stocks be fixed types which are detached rather than folding so as to avoid breaking Michigan law.



YEs you're right... and I believe it to be the full 26". I say maybe less because it depends on how you measure it. If you draw a vertical line at the front of the bbl and a vertical line from the longest point of the gun (the rear of the pistol grip) then it is 26". If you only measure from bbl to rear of receiver, then it's like 25.75. It is a factory rifle with no modifications. I believe it to be fully legal.


That said, what is the ramifications of this law on my michigan pistol?
 

Michigander

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The measurements are made from the extreme ends. In Michigan's case, while it's folded.

That said, what is the ramifications of this law on my michigan pistol?

None, provided you carry a copy of the green card or RI060 with you.

I don't know of a law that says you'd have to show it, but you will need to have it with you.
 

HKcarrier

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michigan
The measurements are made from the extreme ends. In Michigan's case, while it's folded.



None, provided you carry a copy of the green card or RI060 with you.

I don't know of a law that says you'd have to show it, but you will need to have it with you.



I don't get that.. can't they just run the serial numbers to determine date of register? Stupid that you have to carry it with you.. as noted, some NO LONGER HAVE THEM.



I'll ask again, has anyone ever had any LEO encounters while carrying a Michigan pistol under authority of their CPL?
 

Michigander

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I'll ask again, has anyone ever had any LEO encounters while carrying a Michigan pistol under authority of their CPL?

I'm guessing that most, like me, haven't, because of very sparingly carrying MIDAPs. In my case, I've only ever carried it concealed, or while somewhere rural and wanting protection against game laws. And of course to the second amendment march.
 

Xanaseyr

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Feb 14, 2012
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37
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Jackson, MI
I'll ask again, has anyone ever had any LEO encounters while carrying a Michigan pistol under authority of their CPL?

Yeah, I had a MWAG call when someone saw me put my Mossberg 500 into concealment before heading into Meijer.

Jackson County and Blackman Township showed, and Blackman decided to waste my time with a lecture on reason and private property.
(You're not doing anything illegal, and we can't do anything about it, but the manager could throw you out if (s)he wanted to.)



I don't like that this bill would create another group of "special" people, and I don't like that it would heavily restrict/eliminate vehicular carry of heavier calibers.

How would this affect loaning of such weapons? It is my understanding that I can currently loan such a weapon (to be carried as a pistol) to a person with a CPL without paperwork, and that I can loan (to be carried as a pistol) to a person without a CPL by having them register the weapon.
If this makes it, it seems I would have to loan the weapon as a non-pistol, which would require no paperwork. Having done so, would I still be eligible to carry it as a pistol? If I sell and later repurchase the weapon?
I would think so, as I would have owned it as a pistol before the cutoff, and would have the documentation to support that.

Are there any obvious issues with leaving the purchase permit in the car and carrying openly such a weapon as a long gun while on foot? That is, is there anywhere I could OC one of these as a pistol, but not as a non-pistol? (other than vehicular carry)
 
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Michigander

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I don't see a provision for borrowing in there, nor do I see a provision for transfer of those "rights" to another person in any way. I would think that it would imply that selling it to someone and then buying it back would be okay, because it wouldn't require any paperwork unless done through a FFL. Just a regular long gun purchase at that point.

So in essence, loaning would appear to be fine if this law passes, but only the person with the registration information in their name will be able to carry these guns as pistols.

In regards to "possession" of the registration crap, I would suggest having it with you, or having it with the gun, at all times it ends up being carried as a pistol. I would not suggest showing it upon request. It'd be better to tell the cops to produce RAS or a search warrant.

This bill is a rather hard slap in the face. Our "representatives" in Lansing are trying to take away this class of weapons without also getting rid of the OAL crap and prohibitions against car carry for long guns. I'd call it nothing less than oath violation.
 
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DrTodd

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Jun 20, 2008
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Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Yeah, I had a MWAG call when someone saw me put my Mossberg 500 into concealment before heading into Meijer.

Jackson County and Blackman Township showed, and Blackman decided to waste my time with a lecture on reason and private property.
(You're not doing anything illegal, and we can't do anything about it, but the manager could throw you out if (s)he wanted to.)



I don't like that this bill would create another group of "special" people, and I don't like that it would heavily restrict/eliminate vehicular carry of heavier calibers.

How would this affect loaning of such weapons? It is my understanding that I can currently loan such a weapon (to be carried as a pistol) to a person with a CPL without paperwork, and that I can loan (to be carried as a pistol) to a person without a CPL by having them register the weapon.
If this makes it, it seems I would have to loan the weapon as a non-pistol, which would require no paperwork. Having done so, would I still be eligible to carry it as a pistol? If I sell and later repurchase the weapon?
I would think so, as I would have owned it as a pistol before the cutoff, and would have the documentation to support that.

Are there any obvious issues with leaving the purchase permit in the car and carrying openly such a weapon as a long gun while on foot? That is, is there anywhere I could OC one of these as a pistol, but not as a non-pistol? (other than vehicular carry)

Good points. I really think that by allowing yet again more exceptions to the No CC zones for non-LEOs, the State of Michigan is opening themselves up to a huge lawsuit under Equal Protection. If their intent is to have a ruling at some point which allows anyone with a CPL to cc in these zones, then so be it. But, I don't think those elitist @$$€$ are going to be too happy when they lose all control of No CC Zones. :banghead:
 

Small_Arms_Collector

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Eastpointe Michigan
Has this passed yet?

If we get the other one passed, and no longer have to get purchase permits, or register handguns, then this law would serve no purpose, it would just be anti-gun, in that it eliminates "Michigan Pistols", and also it would seem that the grandfather clause would be moot to.

Also what is the cutoff date?
 

Super Trucker

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Wayne County, MI.
Has this passed yet?

If we get the other one passed, and no longer have to get purchase permits, or register handguns, then this law would serve no purpose, it would just be anti-gun, in that it eliminates "Michigan Pistols", and also it would seem that the grandfather clause would be moot to.

Also what is the cutoff date?

I believe it went to the governor on 6-19.

You can read the threads on this forum to know which idiot gun owners were all happy about stripping away more of YOUR rights.


Here is a link to the bills.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(gslnu44521pq0k55iyi0qo45))/mileg.aspx?page=Home
 
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DrTodd

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What is unfortunate is that if you bought a "Michigan Pistol" after January 1, 2012, after this law goes into effect, you will not be able to carry it as you would any pistol. Instead, you must carry it as you would any long gun. I consider this law as "anti 2A legislation", and will vote in the next election accordingly.
 
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fozzy71

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Roseville, Michigan, USA
What is unfortunate is that if you bought a "Michigan Pistol" after January 1, 2012, after this law goes into effect, you will not be able to carry it as you would any pistol. Instead, you must carry it as you would any long gun. I consider this law as "anti 2A legislation", and will vote in the next election accordingly.

They changed the date to 2013.
 

Michigander

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Has anyone else considered the fact that if they pass this and repeal registration, that any CPL holder with a copy of the RI060 form can make fake paperwork for any sufficiently old long gun?

That would be exceptionally idiotic. They need to do more elimination of these trash laws rather than modifying them.
 
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smellslikemichigan

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Jun 16, 2008
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Troy, Michigan, USA
Yep bill calls for destruction of all registration records. Theoretically you wouldn't even need an ri 60 to be grandfathered since you aren't required to keep ri60 after 30 days. An individual could just claim it was once registered as a Michigan pistol.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 

Michigander

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Remember what the bill says, gotta carry the original paperwork to carry it as a pistol.

My point is that it would be incredibly easy to do fraudulently, and they aren't going to give themselves any way to know.

It's just completely absurd. In essence, this is the problem with compromising with law makers. It breeds stupidity.
 
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