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The Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act is here!

Unfettered Might

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The Gonzales v. Raich ruling is ridiculous, what interstate commerce involving Marijuana exists in this country? Last I checked I couldn't go down to my local circle K and order a pack of Marlboro greens. Obviously the current administration feels the same way. I won't even honor the validity of that by discussing it anymore.

The Wickard v. Filburn ruling had a purpose, HAD a purpose, despite the FACT that it is a gross misinterpretation of the text in the Constitution. Much like the ruling then overturned 150 years of case law because the period of time necessitated it, the time has come to establish limitations to such a far reaching power. The fact that many years of case law were overturned should make self evident the plausibility of it being changed again. What happens when 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 states pass such legislation? The constitution states that the government is ULTIMATELY an agent of the states. What is the government and the Supreme Court to do, ignore the will of an overwhelming percentage of the US? Not likely.

Ultimately the power is inherent in the states, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Two have already made it law, one is well on it's way and 9 others have introduced it. This is what is called the "snowball" effect.
 

Statesman

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Mike wrote:
Unfettered Might wrote:
Ultimately the power is inherent in the states, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
huh? No. See the Supremacy Clause.
Mike,

Thank you for the direction on this.

The States collectively still have the power to repeal or change that clause, correct? In that sense, isn't power still inherent in the States? I still look at each of these resolutions, or otherwise, as an emerging consensus among the states. If SCOTUS won't overturn Interstate Commerce abuse, then the next step is for the states to force the issue through an amendment of some kind.

Article Five: Amendments Main article: Article Five of the United States Constitution See also: wikisource:Constitution of the United States of America#Article V An amendment may be ratified in three ways:
  • The new amendment may be approved by two-thirds of both houses of Congress, then sent to the states for approval.
  • Two-thirds of the state legislatures may apply to Congress for a constitutional convention to consider amendments, which are then sent to the states for approval.
  • Congress may require ratification by special convention. The convention method has been used only once, to approve the 21st Amendment (repealing prohibition, 1933).
Regardless of the method of proposing an amendment, final ratification requires approval by three-fourths of the states.
Today Article Five places only one limit on the amending power: no amendment may deprive a state of equal representation in the Senate without that state's consent. The original Article V included other limits on the amending power regarding slavery and taxation; however, these limits expired in 1808.
 

Unfettered Might

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Statesman beat me to it. Yes that is what I was referring to when I said this;

"What happens when 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 states pass such legislation? The constitution states that the government is ULTIMATELY an agent of the states. What is the government and the Supreme Court to do, ignore the will of an overwhelming percentage of the US? Not likely."

Stop referencing small pieces and start looking at the whole picture. The power is ULTIMATELY inherent in the people. The government was never established to become a tyranny, which is what your suggesting is the case.

Regardless, this proposed legislation is important. If even one person decides to not stand behind it, that would have before you were so insistent that it held no weight, then you sir have done an injustice.
 

Statesman

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Mike wrote:
Unfettered Might wrote:
Ultimately the power is inherent in the states, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
huh? No. See the Supremacy Clause.
Mike,

I think you skipped over this part of what Unfettered said, below. No offense intended sir, but I think lawyers today have been indoctrinated by educational institutions into thinking we live in some kind of authoritarian super state, with subordinate regions serving it.

However, I believe you are correct in your assertion that "a State" cannot simply assert that products are not subject to federal regulation. I think the goal of the ten amendment movement, as I have said repeatedly, is to form a consensus among the states, which becomes an entirely different, and relevant matter. This is why it is crucial for everyone in Kentucky to support this bill, and ODCO members in other states should do the same.

consensus, consensus, consensus !!

The constitution states that the government is ULTIMATELY an agent of the states. What is the government and the Supreme Court to do, ignore the will of an overwhelming percentage of the US? Not likely.
 

Unfettered Might

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Statesman wrote:
However, I believe you are correct in your assertion that "a State" cannot simply assert that products are not subject to federal regulation. I think the goal of the ten amendment movement, as I have said repeatedly, is to form a consensus among the states, which becomes an entirely different, and relevant matter. This is why it is crucial for everyone in Kentucky to support this bill, and ODCO members in other states should do the same.
Here here!
 

NewZealandAmerican

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Statesman wrote:
Unfettered Might wrote:
Ok Mike, instead of spouting your personal opinions on the issue, would you care to reference something tangible to backup your statements.

As far as states determining products that are exempt from federal law....how many states have medicinal use of marijuana? Hasn't the federal government backed off of prosecuting cases involving possession for that purpose, do you know why?

Because the power is inherent in the people to decide for themselves, given enough people that agree, the state is empowered to ignore federal law if it so chooses. These check gates were put into place for a reason.

I agree to the will of the people, not the will of politicians. If you don't agree with the basic principles that our country is founded on, well.....

So please be a bit more eloquent in your arguments.
Excellent point! This appears to be a game of will to me. If the current administration in Washington decides it wants to violate the will of a State, or many states, it will have to deal with the consequences of those actions.

The states are not powerless subordinates that exist to grab their ankles at the whim of Washington D.C. No, they're going to jockey for their own power. The founders knew about this human trait to acquire or maintain power too well, and states will resist to keep it.

I agree, power rests with the people and the states, period. :dude:
It's common sense, I'm with Statesman on this. The 50 states are individual nations which form a federation, the federal Govt. Under no certain terms can the federal govt infringe upon the sovereignty of the states in violation of their sovereignty and the Constituional limitations placed on the federal govt. Power flows from the individual (sovereign)to local govt to the state govt then the federal govt. The sooner the majority of people realise this and exert their un-alienable RIGHTS, the sooner we will have true freedom and be able to carry a handgun open or concealed in public places without a permit. Just because the federal govt says so doesn't make it so!
 

NewZealandAmerican

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Mike wrote:
langzaiguy wrote:
I don't understand how the 10th amendment doesn't apply? I understand that the federal government can regulate interstate trade, but if something is produced & sold in the same state, how is it under federal jurisdiction?
Beause itis. Wickard v. Filburn; Gonzales v. Raich.
Just because the Supreme court rules as such, does not make it so, does not make it congruent with the Constitution. We are not bound to obey un-Constitutional rulings from any court even the SCOTUS!. Power always flows from the people, not the other way around. The sooner we realise this, the closer and quicker we will get to being a free people in a free Republic! No offense to you Mike of course! I thankyou and am very grateful to you what you do for LIBERTY, OCDOand the right to carry my gun open or concealed ultimately without a permit anywhere in this great REPUBLIC!
 

Liberty4Ever

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I've been very heavily involved in promoting and advocating the Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act. I'm sorry I've been absent from the OCDO discussion for so long. It truly has been a matter of ignoring natural allies, which makes no sense at all.

I've had Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act tables at the last four major gun shows in Kentucky (Lexington, Louisville, Louisville and Lexington last weekend). I took my Bluegrass Armory .50 BMG rifle and a friend's DoubleStar AR-15 as examples of firearms made in Kentucky that could be purchased without any federal intervention after the KFFA is passed, and I tried to explain the larger goals of the national firearms freedom act and the benefits of state sovereignty.

http://ronpaul.meetup.com/146/photos/787789

http://ronpaul.meetup.com/146/photos/798550

Here's a short piece of literature that I made to explain the KFFA to Kentucky gun owners.

http://files.meetup.com/510992/KFFA-SlimJim.pdf

I created a petition for the Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act.

http://files.meetup.com/510992/KFFA-Petition.pdf

So far, I have collected 798 signed petitions, with the help of some friends. It's an impressive stack, 3.5" tall, that weighs eight pounds. My goal is to deliver 1000 petitions to the legislative committee where I will speak on behalf of the KFFA. This will be my first experience as a citizen legislative activist. I made a trip to the Capitol Building in Frankfort yesterday as part of a legislative training day to prepare for my future appearance to speak to the Elections, Constitutional Amendments and Intergovernmental Affairs Committee when the KFFA is discussed.

I think we could probably pass a more strongly worded Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act, with serious penalties for federal agents who disregard our laws, but at this point it may be better to seek rapid and nearly unanimous passage of the bill. We're building consensus on the issues of freedom in general and firearms freedom in particular.

It's early in the 2010 legislative session, but so far things are looking good for the KFFA. At the time of this post, the bill has been sponsored by representative Stan Lee of Lexington and is co-sponsored by ten other representatives, many from urban areas where I would expect the least support. I assume Stan is reaching out to shore up support in the weakest areas first, knowing this is a slam dunk for rural legislators.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/10RS/HB87.htm

I was not surprised to see an intelligent debate here on OCDO, complete with the historical, legal and philosophical perspectives. However, I was surprised to find so much federalist, statist, defeatist attitude here.

Yes, Wickard v. Filburn and more recently Gonzales v. Raich are the relevant US Supreme Court test cases, but rather than remove all hope of any justice and common sense, they serve as glaring examples of exactly how wrong the federal government is on this matter, and the ridiculous extent to which they have twisted, distorted and over reached in the area of interstate commerce. Neither case was INTERSTATE, nor COMMERCE.

Ironically, the interstate commerce clause they've been abusing originally had a completely different intent. The very meaning of "regulate" has been altered to empower statists at the federal level. When it was first penned, the interstate commerce clause was designed to promote state commerce. It was an attempt to circumvent one state charging exorbitant taxes for goods flowing through their state which would have harmed interstate commerce. Back then, regulate meant "to make regular". The pendulum on a clock was referred to as the regulator, because it facilitated the proper operation. It kept the clock regular, so it displayed the proper time. Old clocks even have the word "regulator" penned in the window where the pendulum can be seen. But now, statists have twisted the word "regulate" to mean tax, inhibit, or prohibit, which is exactly the opposite of the original meaning.

Fast forward to now. Here is what's happened and what's happening.

The federal government and those who benefit from a strong federal government have stepped up their power grab since 1910. Because our country was prosperous, there was plenty and we allowed their confiscatory taxes that made them stronger and us weaker. We have given up a lot of our liberty until the federal government is now the proverbial 800 pound gorilla. They have screwed up our economy and denied us our unalienable rights on many fronts, and now states' rights and individual rights are making a big comeback.

The firearms freedom act (http://www.FirearmsFreedomAct.com) has already passed in two states, is before the state legislatures in the 2010 legislative session in 14 other states, and is under serious consideration in 14 more states. It's one of many state sovereignty measures currently being promoted with great success throughout the country. We have at least three other state sovereignty bills before the 2010 Kentucky state legislature.

The KFFA WILL pass in Kentucky. I don't think there is any force that would oppose the bill in committee, and frankly, there is so much citizen and legislative muscle behind this legislation that any opposition would be squashed like a bug under a steam roller. Once out of committee and up for a floor vote, there are maybe two legislators in Kentucky who could vote against a bill entitled The Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act and keep their job. Legislators opposing firearms freedom in Kentucky will be signing their own pink slips, and they know it.

When over half the states pass firearms freedom acts, and they will, what will the federal government do? They'll scramble and try to retain whatever control they can, but there is little they can do. Read the tenth amendment in our Bill Of Rights. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution (and they are few and specific) are reserved to the States respectively, or to the People. The federal government can pound sand.

The BATFE already sent a letter to the licensed firearms dealers in Montana and Tennessee, instructing them that the federal laws supersede the state laws. This was predicted. We are on course. The day the Montana Firearms Freedom Act became active, that letter was challenged in federal court in Montana.

More states will sign on to the firearms freedom act, and I expect the legal challenge to proceed to the US Supreme Court. The federal government will try to delay the process, because the outcome is inevitable, IMO. The US Supreme Court, being FEDERAL judges, will once again side with the federal government, and then the states will individually use their right to nullify federal laws within the state. The Kentucky Resolution of 1798 is an example of Kentucky nullifying a bad federal law. It was our response to the Alien and Sedition Act, which was the founders version of the USA PATRIOT Act.

This, and issues like this, will be the impetus to elect GOOD representatives at the federal level and clean up the federal rot that we've allowed to spread for decades. We'll eventually appoint good judges to the US Supreme Court, and rectify the federal abuses we've suffered.

It's a long road back to the liberty that is our birthright, but we still have all the legal remedies in place to get back to the freedom our founders fought and died to secure for us, and the best part is, we don't need to have a civil war or fire a single shot. We're right, the power rests with the people as it always does in even the most repressive regimes, and we will prevail.
 

neuroblades

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I'd like to formally request, if possible, a petition form so that I can get signatures on the eastern side of Ky. I have not seen or heard anything about this untill I attended the Lexington gunshow earlier this month. After talking with the guys in the booth down there, I'd like to get on-board with this idea and try to help out over here.
 

Liberty4Ever

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neuroblades,

The petition is at the link in my post just above yours. You can print the petition from the PDF, or copy the PDF to a flash drive and take it to a copy shop like the UPS Store and they'll print it for you. Or, you can save it to your hard drive and email it to the UPS Store to be printed.

OR... I can mail you as many as you can use. I'll pay return shipping too. Just send me a private message telling me how many petitions you want and an address where I can mail them.

When you stopped by the gun show booth, I wish you'd mentioned it was neuroblades from OCDO!
 

Liberty4Ever

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PLEASE SPEND FIVE MINUTES CALLING TO SUPPORT THE KENTUCKY FIREARMS FREEDOM ACT!

The Gun Owners of America fully supports the firearms freedom act. Unfortunately, the NRA sees the conflict with the federal government and rather than appreciating the states rights issue, they see it as something that might be overturned in federal court. It's wrong, but federal courts have a habit of siding with the federal government in these issues. The NRA likes to pick battles that win in court, but this is a battle that we win even if we lose in court.

I've been in contact with some of our usual allies in the Kentucky State Legislature and they seem to care more about what the NRA says and less about what their constituents say.

1) PLEASE CALL 800-372-7181 AND LEAVE A MESSAGE FOR YOUR STATE REPRESENTATIVE ASKING FOR COSPONSORSHIP OF HB 87. THE OPERATOR WILL ASK WHERE YOU LIVE TO DETERMINE YOUR REPRESENTATIVE.

2) PLEASE CALL 800-372-7181 AND LEAVE A MESSAGE FOR REPRESENTATIVES OWENS, FISCHER, AND WESTON TELLING THEM TO PUSH HB 87 OUT OF COMMITTEE FOR A FLOOR VOTE.

3) PLEASE CALL THE NRA-ILA AT 800-392-8683 AND ASK THEM TO SUPPORT THE FIREARMS FREEDOM ACT.

These calls will take a total of about five minutes. Isn't it worth five lousy minutes to advocate for firearms freedom and have your representatives actually represent you for a change? You'll feel better afterward.
:celebrate
 

Statesman

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Liberty4Ever wrote:
PLEASE SPEND FIVE MINUTES CALLING TO SUPPORT THE KENTUCKY FIREARMS FREEDOM ACT!

The Gun Owners of America fully supports the firearms freedom act. Unfortunately, the NRA sees the conflict with the federal government and rather than appreciating the states rights issue, they see it as something that might be overturned in federal court. It's wrong, but federal courts have a habit of siding with the federal government in these issues. The NRA likes to pick battles that win in court, but this is a battle that we win even if we lose in court.

I've been in contact with some of our usual allies in the Kentucky State Legislature and they seem to care more about what the NRA says and less about what their constituents say.

1) PLEASE CALL 800-372-7181 AND LEAVE A MESSAGE FOR YOUR STATE REPRESENTATIVE ASKING FOR COSPONSORSHIP OF HB 87. THE OPERATOR WILL ASK WHERE YOU LIVE TO DETERMINE YOUR REPRESENTATIVE.

2) PLEASE CALL 800-372-7181 AND LEAVE A MESSAGE FOR REPRESENTATIVES OWENS, FISCHER, AND WESTON TELLING THEM TO PUSH HB 87 OUT OF COMMITTEE FOR A FLOOR VOTE.

3) PLEASE CALL THE NRA-ILA AT 800-392-8683 AND ASK THEM TO SUPPORT THE FIREARMS FREEDOM ACT.

These calls will take a total of about five minutes. Isn't it worth five lousy minutes to advocate for firearms freedom and have your representatives actually represent you for a change? You'll feel better afterward.
:celebrate
Done! I called my state representative last night. He supports the bill, but won't co-sponsor until it gets out of committee.

Everyone, please follow up on Liberty's request.
 

Unfettered Might

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Liberty4Ever wrote:
PLEASE SPEND FIVE MINUTES CALLING TO SUPPORT THE KENTUCKY FIREARMS FREEDOM ACT!

The Gun Owners of America fully supports the firearms freedom act. Unfortunately, the NRA sees the conflict with the federal government and rather than appreciating the states rights issue, they see it as something that might be overturned in federal court. It's wrong, but federal courts have a habit of siding with the federal government in these issues. The NRA likes to pick battles that win in court, but this is a battle that we win even if we lose in court.

I've been in contact with some of our usual allies in the Kentucky State Legislature and they seem to care more about what the NRA says and less about what their constituents say.

1) PLEASE CALL 800-372-7181 AND LEAVE A MESSAGE FOR YOUR STATE REPRESENTATIVE ASKING FOR COSPONSORSHIP OF HB 87. THE OPERATOR WILL ASK WHERE YOU LIVE TO DETERMINE YOUR REPRESENTATIVE.

2) PLEASE CALL 800-372-7181 AND LEAVE A MESSAGE FOR REPRESENTATIVES OWENS, FISCHER, AND WESTON TELLING THEM TO PUSH HB 87 OUT OF COMMITTEE FOR A FLOOR VOTE.

3) PLEASE CALL THE NRA-ILA AT 800-392-8683 AND ASK THEM TO SUPPORT THE FIREARMS FREEDOM ACT.

These calls will take a total of about five minutes. Isn't it worth five lousy minutes to advocate for firearms freedom and have your representatives actually represent you for a change? You'll feel better afterward.
:celebrate
Called my support in and spreading the word.
 

Statesman

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Liberty4Ever wrote:
PLEASE SPEND FIVE MINUTES CALLING TO SUPPORT THE KENTUCKY FIREARMS FREEDOM ACT!

The Gun Owners of America fully supports the firearms freedom act. Unfortunately, the NRA sees the conflict with the federal government and rather than appreciating the states rights issue, they see it as something that might be overturned in federal court. It's wrong, but federal courts have a habit of siding with the federal government in these issues. The NRA likes to pick battles that win in court, but this is a battle that we win even if we lose in court.

I've been in contact with some of our usual allies in the Kentucky State Legislature and they seem to care more about what the NRA says and less about what their constituents say.

1) PLEASE CALL 800-372-7181 AND LEAVE A MESSAGE FOR YOUR STATE REPRESENTATIVE ASKING FOR COSPONSORSHIP OF HB 87. THE OPERATOR WILL ASK WHERE YOU LIVE TO DETERMINE YOUR REPRESENTATIVE.

2) PLEASE CALL 800-372-7181 AND LEAVE A MESSAGE FOR REPRESENTATIVES OWENS, FISCHER, AND WESTON TELLING THEM TO PUSH HB 87 OUT OF COMMITTEE FOR A FLOOR VOTE.

3) PLEASE CALL THE NRA-ILA AT 800-392-8683 AND ASK THEM TO SUPPORT THE FIREARMS FREEDOM ACT.

These calls will take a total of about five minutes. Isn't it worth five lousy minutes to advocate for firearms freedom and have your representatives actually represent you for a change? You'll feel better afterward.
:celebrate
Liberty,

I've included your post in my original posting. Let me know if you want to make updates.
 

Liberty4Ever

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We just picked up a senate sponsor for the Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act! I just got the call. I'd say more, but I'm not sure if I should be naming names at this point. I may have already said too much! :uhoh:

I was on a three way conference call yesterday with someone HUGE in the national gun rights movement and someone HUGE in the Kentucky gun rights movement. I felt like I was eating Christmas dinner at the kid's table and listening in on the conversation at the adult table. It was very educational.

The Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act legislation is starting to move. It has overwhelming support at the grassroots level propelling it forward, and I don't think the NRA can really come out against it at this point. As that popular support grows, I think they'll be forced to grudgingly get on board near the end. They did something like that in the Heller case. The NRA is a conservative organization so they won't be the first to jump onto an aggressive leading edge gun rights issue like this, but I don't think they can afford to fight it openly, either.

I'm certainly learning a lot about politics. I have long heard that the process is like making sausage. Even when you like the end result, you don't want to see it being made. That's very true.

The KFFA won't be the slam dunk I had hoped it might be, but with our hard work, I think it will pass. Thank you all for your work on behalf of the KFFA! Let's keep the pressure on them and let them know that We the People want this bill to be passed. It doesn't hurt to call more than once, or call and email, or mail a letter! Call and talk directly with your state representative if you can spare a few minutes. I called yesterday while filling up with gas at the service station, so it doesn't need to eat into our busy lives. We just need to squeeze it in where we can. They certainly won't represent us if they don't hear from us. Now we can call our state senators too. Even though there isn't a bill introduced into the senate yet, there will be! Let them know it's coming, and when there's a bill number, that's a good excuse to call them again. :)
 

Statesman

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Added update to original post. I added this update to the top as an introduction to new viewers, and as a rebuttal about the legality of state nullification rights.

[line]
UPDATE 1/21/2010: The Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act (KFFA), is a bill about nullifying a federal law that a state legislature declares as being unconstitutional. This is a controversial subject, and many people disagree about its effectiveness. Fear not, nullification is already being successfully used in other areas. Please see http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl2/nullification-of-congress.html for further details.

Quote: "[font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]When a state nullifies a federal law, it does so with the solemn conviction that the law in question is unconstitutional. The state's lawmakers, generally invoking their sovereign powers under the Tenth Amendment, are proclaiming that the offensive law is void and inoperative, or non-effective, within the boundaries of that state. In other words, they declare that the federal law is not "legal" and cannot be enforced against their citizens.
[/font]
[font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]
Such nullification has a long history in the American tradition. Of late it has been used by quite a few states in effectively blocking the federal Real ID Act of 2005 and resisting federal marijuana laws. With regard to healthcare legislation expected to be forced on us against our will by Washington, a number of states are already putting into motion the wheels of nullification.
[/font]
[font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"[/font]
 

Liberty4Ever

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I try to explain the KFFA to people at the gun shows by telling them that there will be a challenge in federal court that will probably go all the way to the US Supreme Court, and based on past interstate commerce cases, there is a very good chance that the Supremes (federal judges) will side with the federal government, and then the states, including Kentucky, will nullify the unconstitutional federal laws. It's unlikely that the federal government will voluntarily relinquish their power. The states have the power, and they need to exercise it.

For too long, the states have been employed by the federal government to enforce federal laws and edicts. We will not restore the proper constitutional role of a limited federal government overnight, but this will be the first step in that process. Many people honestly believe that we've gone too far and we won't be able to reverse the unconstitutional federal government without civil war. I occasionally think about that possibility, but it's almost too horrific to contemplate. I'm very invested in the political solution. If enough of us decide to fix this mess, we can.

I just returned from the 10th amendment state sovereignty rally in Frankfort. It was a rowdy crowd! I collected several more signed petitions for the Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act.

I spoke to an older gentleman who has been calling the NRA a lot lately, urging them to support the KFFA, and he's threatening to cancel his membership over this issue if the NRA doesn't push the firearms freedom bills. They should be leading in this effort, not waiting on the sidelines for the GOA and various liberty groups and individuals to do the heavy lifting and then swoop in and take credit at the end. I hope that's not their plan. My messages to the NRA have included a comment about them studying the issue until after we've passed the bill into law, and how that isn't leadership.

Keep up those calls to the NRA. It's working. They need to support firearms freedom and they will support firearms freedom.
 

neuroblades

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OK, I'm just a small fish in this BIG fish tank of sorts. *LOL* I recently set up a Yahoo Group hoping to help promote the KFFA.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KFFA/

I honestly have no idea if this will be of any help at all but I don't think it can hurt the effort.

Looking for one or two forum members that are closer to the KFFA info than I to be moderators as well.
 
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