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cop kills double amputee in wheelchair

DocWalker

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The article says they were in close quarters and a mentally ill amputee tried stabbing a police officer while apparently making threats - btw he was the reason of the call in the first place. If the only information we have to argue about is in that article - then wtf is there to argue? Given the information this was a defensive homicide.

This thread makes me want to wash my hands of this place. You guys weren't in their shoes, you don't know the lay out of the building, who was standing where at what time and all that jazz, you sound crazy calling this a bad shoot.

I work in a VA hospital and before that I worked for a Fire Department and Ambulance company with over 20 years of Emergency Room experience. I have had my share and continue to have my share of mentally aggresive (both handicap and not) patients. I have been smacked, kicked, decked (yes I actually seen stars), bitten, and threatened and not once did they allow me to shoot any of them.

I need to get this to the hospital administration so we can get a new policy of shoot first and ask questions later.
 

Fuller Malarkey

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The information being debated here says that the man was making threats and attempting to stab the officer with a metal object - this is the same as 'wouldn't settle down' to you?

Another officer opened fire, saying was forced to take action, "fearing for his partner's safety and his own safety", after the man refused to calm down and remain still, police told AP.

http://rt.com/usa/news/houston-police-shoot-amputee-786/
 

RetiredOC

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Another officer opened fire, saying was forced to take action, "fearing for his partner's safety and his own safety", after the man refused to calm down and remain still, police told AP.

http://rt.com/usa/news/houston-police-shoot-amputee-786/

Okay? That wasn't the information provided in the OP.
HOUSTON (AP) — A Houston police officer shot and killed a one-armed, one-legged man in a wheelchair Saturday inside a group home after police say the double amputee threatened the officer and aggressively waved a metal object that turned out to be a pen.

Police spokeswoman Jodi Silva said the man cornered the officer in his wheelchair and was making threats while trying to stab the officer with the pen. At the time, the officer did not know what the metal object was that the man was waving, Silva said.

I have been smacked, kicked, decked (yes I actually seen stars), bitten, and threatened and not once did they allow me to shoot any of them.
What does this have to do with the price of eggs in china? We're talking about a story where a man was allegedly trying to stab a police officer while making threats.
 
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DocWalker

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What does this have to do with the price of eggs in china? We're talking about a story where a man was allegedly trying to stab a police officer while making threats.

This has everything to do with this event.

1. The dead guy was not working at 100% mental strenght and the cops knew this.
2. He was a disabled veteran with mental issues (he was in a care facility not at disneyland).
3. If you get a chance to attend the police acadamy you will learn a tool called USE-OF-FORCE; this was obviously a jump to use of deadly force before all other options were used.
4. Why did his parnter and him enter the room before doing a complete assessment of the situation, why did they let it esculate to the situation? Why did the officer get cornered by a wheel chair? Someone didn't follow their training and put themselves in a bad situation.
5. One of the things an officer isn't supposed to do is use their past to determain use of force, this officer sounds like he is quick to jump to deadly force first.
6. My option is someone screwed up, and it was either him or his partner or both.
7. No reason to kill someone with a pen, you should always have an escape route. I was taught to never let a perp get between you and the exit for a couple of reasons.
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Someone also needs to assign a degree of accountability to the victim. In a 24 hour a day supervised group home due to his schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia (/ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfriːniə/) is a mental disorder characterized by a breakdown of thought processes and by poor emotional responsiveness.[1] It most commonly manifests itself as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction.

"Emotionally disturbed individuals, when threatened, are going to react, in most instances, excessively," Dr. Ed Reitman, a clinical psychologist, told KTRK.
"This was an incident that didn't have to take place if the individual -- a police officer -- had been trained in dealing with emotionally disturbed individuals."


The Houston Police Department has officers trained to deal with mentally ill people

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/23/us/texas-amputee-shooting/index.html
 

()pen(arry

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What does this have to do with the price of eggs in china? We're talking about a story where a man was allegedly trying to stab a police officer while making threats.

In Texas, deadly force may only be employed in self defense when a reasonable person believes that grievous harm would occur if the deadly force were not employed. I'm sure someone will quibble over the niggling details of the way I've described it, but the point remains: proportionality. As I understand it, this is generally the standard throughout the country*. Why does the cop, who theoretically is trained better than the typical citizen in threat reduction, get carte blanche to employ disproportionate force? It has been made clear that I must state this: hypothetical worst-case scenarios are not accepted under the standard of reasonableness.

Don't you see? This is the fundamental problem: differing standards, in the wrong direction. Cops must necessarily be held to higher standards, yet universally they are held to lower standards.

* Pre-edit: Found this on FindLaw:
States vary greatly regarding when force or deadly force is allowed in defense of self or property. The general rule for self-defense is that force is allowed if the actor reasonably believes it is required to protect him- or herself from someone else's use or attempted use of unlawful force against them. The amount of force used typically must also be reasonably proportionate to ending the threat faced.
 

RetiredOC

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This has everything to do with this event.

1. The dead guy was not working at 100% mental strenght and the cops knew this.
2. He was a disabled veteran with mental issues (he was in a care facility not at disneyland).
Just because someone is ill in the brain doesn't mean you have to let your guard down while they're trying to stab you. In fact, it'd make me put my guard up.
3. If you get a chance to attend the police acadamy you will learn a tool called USE-OF-FORCE; this was obviously a jump to use of deadly force before all other options were used.
I do have law enforcement training (not at the academy), and we learn to stay one level above the suspect when it comes to use of force. You know, like hand to hand - whip out the baton. Suspect has a weapon? Gun. SUSPECT IS TRYING TO STAB YOU WHILE MAKING THREATS - GUN.
4. Why did his parnter and him enter the room before doing a complete assessment of the situation, why did they let it esculate to the situation? Why did the officer get cornered by a wheel chair? Someone didn't follow their training and put themselves in a bad situation.
We weren't there, we don't know the layout of the room, we can't begin to monday morning quarterback this aspect of it.
5. One of the things an officer isn't supposed to do is use their past to determain use of force, this officer sounds like he is quick to jump to deadly force first.
quick to jump to deadly force first? He shot someone who was stabbing their neighbor to death and in this case shot someone who was allegedly trying to stab a fellow police officer - his partner.
6. My option is someone screwed up, and it was either him or his partner or both.
Not the guy trying to stab the cop - we can't blame him with jack squat. Having a mental problem gives you free roam to stab cops now according to people ITT.
7. No reason to kill someone with a pen, you should always have an escape route. I was taught to never let a perp get between you and the exit for a couple of reasons.
We don't know what happened to get the in the position they were in. To try to debate how he should have been here or there is just silly. Also, the report says the cop wasn't sure what he was trying to stab him with. When someone is trying to stab you I highly suggest you don't try to take the time to figure out what it is first before you react - you'll end up dead.
 

DocWalker

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The Houston Police Department has officers trained to deal with mentally ill people

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/23/us/texas-amputee-shooting/index.html


This officer and his partner are not the officer trained to deal with mentally ill people evidentally.

My point is I deal with mentally ill, alcoholic, drug abusing, disabled, veterans with flashbacks, and some very angry and agressive people. I have been threated and attacked by some of my patients and have never ever ever considered SHOOTING THEM.

I must admit that Haldol, Atavan and a few other well placed injections have calmed some situations but I have NEVER KILLED anyone for attacking me or my staff.

We train our medical staff to get away if possiable, always have an exit, never get to close (unless you are doing hands on care), proper stance, and techniques to deflect a punch, kick, hold, bite, and other attachs. We call it Prevention and Managment of Disruptive Behavior (PMDB). We don't teach our medical staff to hurt the patients back although some of us have worked for law enforcement or the prison system.

This person needed treatment not lead poisening.
 

DocWalker

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Also, the report says the cop wasn't sure what he was trying to stab him with. When someone is trying to stab you I highly suggest you don't try to take the time to figure out what it is first before you react - you'll end up dead.

Dam all this time I could have just shot and killed all those mental patients and drunks that attacked me with bed pans, bottles, canes, and other objects that could have hurt or killed me.

We have been doing this all wrong in the hospitals, we should all carry a gun and shoot anyone that attacks us if they so much as have a spoon in their hands. Dinner time will be more exiting from now on with any diabetic with a low blood sugar.....drop the fork or die.

I like you idea....NOT
 

Fuller Malarkey

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This officer and his partner are not the officer trained to deal with mentally ill people evidentally.

My point is I deal with mentally ill, alcoholic, drug abusing, disabled, veterans with flashbacks, and some very angry and agressive people. I have been threated and attacked by some of my patients and have never ever ever considered SHOOTING THEM.

I must admit that Haldol, Atavan and a few other well placed injections have calmed some situations but I have NEVER KILLED anyone for attacking me or my staff.

We train our medical staff to get away if possiable, always have an exit, never get to close (unless you are doing hands on care), proper stance, and techniques to deflect a punch, kick, hold, bite, and other attachs. We call it Prevention and Managment of Disruptive Behavior (PMDB). We don't teach our medical staff to hurt the patients back although some of us have worked for law enforcement or the prison system.

This person needed treatment not lead poisening.

^^^^This forum needs to get a "THANKS" function.^^^^

"All Houston Police Officers receive mandatory crisis intervention training specifically dealing with persons experiencing mental crisis. ~Houston Police Chief Charles McClelland

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/amputee-fatally-shot-houston-police-named-17308300#.UGDPyLJlT6w
 
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Mark 1911

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Deadly force should be an absolute last resort. How is it that two men with all their physical faculties intact had no other choice than to shoot a man in a wheel chair? WTF??? What a couple of p___ies!!
 

twoskinsonemanns

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Have any of you been through any kind of self defense training at all? You don't meet lethal force with less than lethal force - unless you don't care about going home that day. The cop had all kinds of options, he could have been an idiot and tried to pepper spray someone who was "making threats while trying to stab the officer with the pen." Instead, he met what he felt was lethal force with lethal force.


Do you think cops actually are out to "shoot citizens?" Do you honestly believe that?


You're comparing handing your license over to a cop to making threats and attempting to stab a cop?

Since9 is on to something. You guys are getting ridiculous.

The article says they were in close quarters and a mentally ill amputee tried stabbing a police officer while apparently making threats - btw he was the reason of the call in the first place. If the only information we have to argue about is in that article - then wtf is there to argue? Given the information this was a defensive homicide.

This thread makes me want to wash my hands of this place. You guys weren't in their shoes, you don't know the lay out of the building, who was standing where at what time and all that jazz, you sound crazy calling this a bad shoot.

I understand why you didn't answer my question, but I'd like to ask it again. With the information we have at hand would you have killed this handicapped man?
 

davidmcbeth

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Here's something" would you shoot a person you think is full of HIV when he is next to your partner; blood splatter all over your partner
 

RetiredOC

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Dam all this time I could have just shot and killed all those mental patients and drunks that attacked me with bed pans, bottles, canes, and other objects that could have hurt or killed me.

We have been doing this all wrong in the hospitals, we should all carry a gun and shoot anyone that attacks us if they so much as have a spoon in their hands. Dinner time will be more exiting from now on with any diabetic with a low blood sugar.....drop the fork or die.

I like you idea....NOT
Yes, if someone is trying to kill you you should respond accordingly.

I understand why you didn't answer my question, but I'd like to ask it again. With the information we have at hand would you have killed this handicapped man?
If someone was trying to stab myself or my partner I would hope that I wouldn't hesitate to use lethal force to stop the threat.

Here's something" would you shoot a person you think is full of HIV when he is next to your partner; blood splatter all over your partner
You watch a lot of movies huh?
rambo2.gif
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Houston police shootings of unarmed people this year.

On Sept. 16, an unarmed 26-year-old man was shot in the leg by police officers on Beechnut after he reached for a cellphone on his waistband that officers believed was a gun. Investigators learned that the man had a history of mental illness and had attempted suicide several times, including an attempt just a few months ago.

On July 9, Rufino Lara, 54, an illegal immigrant from El Salvador, was fatally shot by an HPD officer who reported that Lara ignored repeated commands to stop and show his hands. The officer said Lara had his hand in his waistband, and when he whirled to face her, she shot him, believing he could have had a weapon.

A search showed Lara had a beer can concealed in his waistband. Activists are suspicious because two witnesses contend Lara had his hands up against a wall before he turned to face the officer.

In the first seven months of 2012 compared to the same period last year, officer-involved shootings have almost doubled. As of July 25, Houston police were involved in 14 shootings with suspects, killing seven, on pace to exceed the 21 incidents last year by the police in which nine persons were killed.

Texas law mandates that officers receive 16 hours of crisis training, although Houston and some other departments provide additional instruction. Lt. Mike Lee, who oversees HPD's mental health services, told the Chronicle recently that the department teaches officers to talk in a calm voice and not to get close to or touch individuals.

No police officer in Harris County Texas has been charged in a shooting since the prosecution of Sgt. Jeffrey Cotton, who was acquitted by a jury in May 2010 for shooting an unarmed man outside the victim's Bellaire home.
 

RetiredOC

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Houston police shootings of unarmed people this year.

What does this have to do with the topic? The amputee was armed with an object and trying to stab the officer while making threats. The object turned out to be a pen - which you can still stab someone with, some pens now are made to be stabbing objects.

Sweet straw man bro.

strawman-motivational.jpg
 

twoskinsonemanns

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If someone was trying to stab myself or my partner I would hope that I wouldn't hesitate to use lethal force to stop the threat.

Just for clarification you're saying yes, you would have gunned down this handicapped amputee under the circumstances known?
 

OC for ME

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Okay? That wasn't the information provided in the OP.
It is not the OP's job to do your research for you. he provided a link to a news story, if you desired more information try using Google. You jumped to conclusions based solely on your adoration of LE.

Bottom line, for me anyway, the cop will get off Scott free, as usual. Who is gunna fret over one dead crazy vet trying to stab a cop with a "metal object?" That crazy one armed one legged vet deserved what he got.....when a cop gives you a command, obey or suffer the consequences.

HPD can carve another notch into their gun-belts.
 

DocWalker

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That crazy one armed one legged vet deserved what he got.....when a cop gives you a command, obey or suffer the consequences.

HPD can carve another notch into their gun-belts.

I like it so much for a free sociaty now we are more and more like Germany 1935. Do what the SS (HPD) tells you or you will disapear or DIE.

People with mental illness, drunk, on medication or other wise not in command of their facilities will just have to die in Texas.

This is a good way to open bed space in the mental hospitals and at VA medical centers.
 
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