March on Washington 07-04-2013

[Freedom First]

I am guessing based on his posts, bend over and take it with a smile...

I want his solution to the tyranny present in DC. Eye is a smart guy and he has no shortage of opinions on every subject. I'm hoping for a fresh approach to this.

 

[eye95]

Eye,

What mechanism did the Framers leave us in the Constitution for dealing with an entrenched and lawless group of people who refuse to honor their Oath or to obey the laws of the land?

Just wondering what you solution to the above problem would look like. Thanks!

I believe in using constitutional and lawful means (the courts and the ballot box) to change the laws and the government until such time as the tyranny is operating in a manner to make such change impossible. At that time, a when-in-the-course-of-human-events moment has arrived, the Constitution is no longer in force, and extra-constitutional action will be warranted.

The best example I can give (and I have given that example several times) would be when the government marches on us to take away our ability to dissolve it by taking our arms. A good example of what this ISN'T would be armed citizens marching on the seat of government, attempting to provoke an armed response from the government.

 

[eye95]

I want his solution to the tyranny present in DC. Eye is a smart guy and he has no shortage of opinions on every subject. I'm hoping for a fresh approach to this.

The poster to whom you were replying seems to like stating my opinions for me--incorrectly and dishonestly so. No matter. All he accomplishes is destroying his own credibility in the matter.

 

[Freedom First]

I believe in using constitutional and lawful means (the courts and the ballot box) to change the laws and the government until such time as the tyranny is operating in a manner to make such change impossible. At that time, a when-in-the-course-of-human-events moment has arrived, the Constitution is no longer in force, and extra-constitutional action will be warranted.

The best example I can give (and I have given that example several times) would be when the government marches on us to take away our ability to dissolve it by taking our arms. A good example of what this ISN'T would be armed citizens marching on the seat of government, attempting to provoke an armed response from the government.

So, just to make sure I understand, you are suggesting that lawsuits and voting will send the .gov tyranny back into the bottle?

 

[eye95]

So, just to make sure I understand, you are suggesting that lawsuits and voting will send the .gov tyranny back into the bottle?

I don't know. I don't own a crystal ball. But the situation with respect to the RKBA is improving, so I will keep trying.

What I can tell you, based on the overwhelming evidence from history, is that, if this government is overthrown, as Kokesh advocates and has stated as a goal of this march, it will almost surely be replaced with even worse tyranny.

The only revolution I know of in history that did not result eventually in a huge increase in tyranny is the American Revolution, but that was not really a revolution so much as it was a nation already full of Liberty throwing off oppressors coming from outside trying to take that Liberty away. How did revolution for the Russians and the French work out for them?

 

[Freedom First]

I don't know. I don't own a crystal ball. But the situation with respect to the RKBA is improving, so I will keep trying.

What I can tell you, based on the overwhelming evidence from history, is that, if this government is overthrown, as Kokesh advocates and has stated as a goal of this march, it will almost surely be replaced with even worse tyranny.

The only revolution I know of in history that did not result eventually in a huge increase in tyranny is the American Revolution, but that was not really a revolution so much as it was a nation already full of Liberty throwing off oppressors coming from outside trying to take that Liberty away. How did revolution for the Russians and the French work out for them?

I hear you. Completely. And I agree with your version of "revolutionary" history. Rarely pretty, seldom beneficial. So, in your mind, why was our different?

 

[Freedom First]

The only revolution I know of in history that did not result eventually in a huge increase in tyranny is the American Revolution, but that was not really a revolution so much as it was a nation already full of Liberty throwing off oppressors coming from outside trying to take that Liberty away. How did revolution for the Russians and the French work out for them?

I think we had outgrown our relationship with the Crown. I'll step out on a limb here, some of us have outgrown the monster in DC too. But many are ensnared in the machine, with it's free stuff and lack of personal responsibility.

 

[eye95]

I hear you. Completely. And I agree with your version of "revolutionary" history. Rarely pretty, seldom beneficial. So, in your mind, why was our different?

Because our "revolution" was more an effort to maintain the status quo from those who would increase tyranny. The failures are instances of trying to remove existing tyranny and replace it with increased Liberty. History tells us that that is not efficacious. Therefore, revolution should be a last resort, once the tyranny has become so intolerable as to be worth the risk the near certainty of increasing the tyranny in the vain hope of restoring Liberty!

If we ever get to such a revolution, I believe that, most likely, Liberty on Earth will be over forever.

 

[Freedom First]

I also believe that the parallel government that formed in the 1770s through the various Committees created a replacement, formed of, for, and by the people, and those groups stood ready to step in and take the reins of power from the Crown as she lost hold on them. And interesting thing, it was truly a "grassroots" effort. The so-called founders of this nation came along to sort out what the people themselves had already done. It's wasn't a mob, led by a few men, it was a people shrugging off the ties that bound them to a system that refused to acknowledge them as true British citizens.

 

[eye95]

I also believe that the parallel government that formed in the 1770s through the various Committees created a replacement, formed of, for, and by the people, and those groups stood ready to step in and take the reins of power from the Crown as she lost hold on them. And interesting thing, it was truly a "grassroots" effort. The so-called founders of this nation came along to sort out what the people themselves had already done. It's wasn't a mob, led by a few men, it was a people shrugging off the ties that bound them to a system that refused to acknowledge them as true British citizens.

It was a unique confluence of events in history that were not possible previously nor possible later. We must be in awe that it happened!

[This is a great convo. I wish all of them could maintain such a high level of discourse. Kudos and respect to you.]

 

[Freedom First]

Because our "revolution" was more an effort to maintain the status quo from those who would increase tyranny. The failures are instances of trying to remove existing tyranny and replace it with increased Liberty. History tells us that that is not efficacious. Therefore, revolution should be a last resort, once the tyranny has become so intolerable as to be worth the risk the near certainty of increasing the tyranny in the vain hope of restoring Liberty!

What if the Union was simply dissolved and power returned to the States and the People? Could that be done at the ballot box or in a courtroom? I know many cling to the ideal that the united States was meant to last forever but nothing ever does. All things break down and fail.

This government, a predicted, has failed in it's central task: Protecting the Rights of the People. It is now the very thing that violates those Rights and as such need to be repaired or replaced. As stated in the Declaration. Unfortunately, the men who wrote the Constitution didn't leave a simple means "to dissolve the political bands" that bind us to DC. I know of no way to simply sue them into compliance nor can we hold a vote to restart the government.

If we ever get to such a revolution, I believe that, most likely, Liberty on Earth will be over forever.

I hope you are wrong. A revolution will come, regardless of our opinions. People outside of our control will start it.

 

[Freedom First]

It was a unique confluence of events in history that were not possible previously nor possible later. We must be in awe that it happened!

Why must it be impossible today? I am involved in starting Committees all over Washington State. We are actively setting up the means to preserve the Rule of Law in whatever darkness comes. The People, as a whole, sense that something is wrong but lack the tools to deal with those feelings. We're helping them prepare for a breakdown in our societal norms and educating them on their Rights.

[This is a great convo. I wish all of them could maintain such a high level of discourse. Kudos and respect to you.]

Thank you. I've been guilty of poking the Ape a time or two but I respect your tenacity.

 

[eye95]

What if the Union was simply dissolved and power returned to the States and the People? Could that be done at the ballot box or in a courtroom? I know many cling to the ideal that the united States was meant to last forever but nothing ever does. All things break down and fail.

This government, a predicted, has failed in it's central task: Protecting the Rights of the People. It is now the very thing that violates those Rights and as such need to be repaired or replaced. As stated in the Declaration. Unfortunately, the men who wrote the Constitution didn't leave a simple means "to dissolve the political bands" that bind us to DC. I know of no way to simply sue them into compliance nor can we hold a vote to restart the government.

That was tried once before, and failed. Not that we should not try again. As a matter of fact, I have stated that, were some States to secede with the stated intent of restoring our Republic, I'd move there! My loyalty is to the Constitution, not to those currently in power.

I hope you are wrong. A revolution will come, regardless of our opinions. People outside of our control will start it.

I hope you are wrong. But you are probably right. Kokesh is one of those people outside my control who may start it. If he does, he and I may ironically end up on the same side. I would still hate him forever for having pressed that which may not have required pressing yet. I would have to summon all of my moral strength not to "accidentally" fell him with "friendly" fire!

On edit: I highlighted the word "not" to make sure my meaning is clear to those who are willing to see my meaning.

 

[WalkingWolf]

(snip) I would have to summon all of my moral strength not to "accidentally" fell him with "friendly" fire!

And you have he gall to make accusations and give opinions of others, yet you proudly proclaim that you would commit murder. Can't believe you call yourself a Christian.

IRONY!

 

[Freedom First]

That was tried once before, and failed. Not that we should not try again. As a matter of fact, I have stated that, were some States to secede with the stated intent of restoring our Republic, I'd move there! My loyalty is to the Constitution, not to those currently in power.

I think it was Jefferson who said that it was immoral to enslave your children in debt they will never benefit from. The same can be said, in my mind, of governments. This government was forced on us by the simple fact of the time and location of our birth. We have never had a chance to ratify the Constitution or any of the things done in our name.

And I am not writing about a secession of a few States. I mean a dissolution of the entire Union. Simply uprooting the entire thing. Like a No Fault divorce. Everyone grabs some stuff and the States can stand or fall as they may. Kind of a crazy idea but anything else leaves the machine in place. And the seeds of DC must be removed and left infertile.

The States would surely form regional compacts and perhaps the case could be made for a new federation of the States at some point but let that generation choose.

 

[eye95]

Why must it be impossible today? I am involved in starting Committees all over Washington State. We are actively setting up the means to preserve the Rule of Law in whatever darkness comes. The People, as a whole, sense that something is wrong but lack the tools to deal with those feelings. We're helping them prepare for a breakdown in our societal norms and educating them on their Rights...

Wow. That would take a lot to explain. I will try to do so briefly, but this could take several pages of back-and-forth.

During colonization, a unique historical opportunity arose: Civilized people who understood the rule of law were thrust into a total Liberty situation. England could not exercise the level of control on the other side of the Atlantic that they could do at home. The colonists were able to form small governmental structures that operated independently of each other in which they were able to choose the extent to which these structures would exercise control and to which extent they would respect Liberty. From scads of these little Liberty experiments, a consensus of what protected Liberty and what did not developed. There wasn't a monolithic agreement on implementation, but the underlying ideas were incredibly similar.

As much as England tried, they could not control this experiment. It worked so well as to be a mine of wealth that England wanted to tap. In their stupidity, they tried to tap it in a way that would destroy it (can you say "progressive"?). To tap it, they needed to control it. So they tried to foist tyranny on a system that was the antithesis of tyranny. Fortunately, they failed when we fought back (something of a miracle, even under those circumstances).

I don't think this is possible again because the tyranny we are experiencing now has been basically invited by the people (can you say "Boston"?). Americans have forgotten the Blessings of Liberty and essentially want the blessings of parental government (can you say "What's so bad about Obamacare?").

If we miraculously found a place so rich with resources, not currently well-inhabited, three months of harsh travel away from current civilization, we might have a shot at recreating these circumstances. Under today's circumstances, a revolution is almost surely to be more analogous to the Russian or French revolutions. Folks need to consider that.

 

[eye95]

I think it was Jefferson who said that it was immoral to enslave your children in debt they will never benefit from. The same can be said, in my mind, of governments. This government was forced on us by the simple fact of the time and location of our birth. We have never had a chance to ratify the Constitution or any of the things done in our name.

And I am not writing about a secession of a few States. I mean a dissolution of the entire Union. Simply uprooting the entire thing. Like a No Fault divorce. Everyone grabs some stuff and the States can stand or fall as they may. Kind of a crazy idea but anything else leaves the machine in place. And the seeds of DC must be removed and left infertile.

The States would surely form regional compacts and perhaps the case could be made for a new federation of the States at some point but let that generation choose.

Governments are instituted (properly, at least) by the People, which include the current population and the future population. You are right that that reality foists a particular government on the yet-to-be-born. However, the federal and republican system that we formed was the best way to do this. Each State was free to be as controlling or Liberty-loving as the People wanted it to be, as long as they used republican means. The federal government was ceded only the power necessary to perform the few functions given it.

This created a system that had the best shot at giving the People (even the yet-to-be-born) the best shot at living where Liberty was respected in a way they could support. For example, I was born and spent my first 20 years living in NY. I'd never go back. I have chosen the State in which I will live, partly based on the level of Liberty living there affords me.

The lesson is that the only way to create the maximum probability that folks (even the yet-to-be-born) will be able to CHOOSE their government is our federal republic with fifty (57?) laboratories of Liberty. To make sure it continues to work, we have to somehow get the federal government back in its box, a herculean task to say the least.

On edit: I love how this rational discussion is bookending someone trying to trash it. The juxtaposition is enlightening and beautiful!

 

[Freedom First]

Wow. That would take a lot to explain. I will try to do so briefly, but this could take several pages of back-and-forth.

During colonization, a unique historical opportunity arose: Civilized people who understood the rule of law were thrust into a total Liberty situation. England could not exercise the level of control on the other side of the Atlantic that they could do at home. The colonists were able to form small governmental structures that operated independently of each other in which they were able to choose the extent to which these structures would exercise control and to which extent they would respect Liberty. From scads of these little Liberty experiments, a consensus of what protected Liberty and what did not developed. There wasn't a monolithic agreement on implementation, but the underlying ideas were incredibly similar.

As much as England tried, they could not control this experiment. It worked so well as to be a mine of wealth that England wanted to tap. In their stupidity, they tried to tap it in a way that would destroy it (can you say "progressive"?). To tap it, they needed to control it. So they tried to foist tyranny on a system that was the antithesis of tyranny. Fortunately, they failed when we fought back (something of a miracle, even under those circumstances).

I don't think this is possible again because the tyranny we are experiencing now has been basically invited by the people (can you say "Boston"?). Americans have forgotten the Blessings of Liberty and essentially want the blessings of parental government (can you say "What's so bad about Obamacare?").

If we miraculously found a place so rich with resources, not currently well-inhabited, three months of harsh travel away from current civilization, we might have a shot at recreating these circumstances. Under today's circumstances, a revolution is almost surely to be more analogous to the Russian or French revolutions. Folks need to consider that.

Well said.

But that place does not exist, short of interplanetary travel... So, what should we do? I think you will agree that we do live under a clear form of tyranny? If so, then we have a Right, as humans, to try to improve our situation. We have for generations voted and sued these people but we always wind up losing ground. Sure, RKBA is better. Or is it? Newtown sent a couple States to the dark side. Quickly. Other shooters will follow and other laws will come. Soon, we will be left defenseless in the face of the machine. And then it will be too late.

Reminds me of a quote, "Power is always gradually stealing away from the many to the few, because the few are more vigilant and consistent; it still contracts to a smaller number, till in time it centers in a single person.
Thus all the forms of governments instituted among mankind, perpetually tend towards monarchy; and power, however diffused through the whole community, is by negligence or corruption, commotion or distress, reposed at last in the chief magistrate." Johnson: Adventurer #45 (March 27, 1753)

The only cure I can see is a reset. And that's not likely to be safe or comfortable. Back up your data...

 

[Freedom First]

Dude, I gotta go to work. Bye!

 

[eye95]

Well said.

But that place does not exist, short of interplanetary travel... So, what should we do? I think you will agree that we do live under a clear form of tyranny? If so, then we have a Right, as humans, to try to improve our situation. We have for generations voted and sued these people but we always wind up losing ground. Sure, RKBA is better. Or is it? Newtown sent a couple States to the dark side. Quickly. Other shooters will follow and other laws will come. Soon, we will be left defenseless in the face of the machine. And then it will be too late.

Reminds me of a quote, "Power is always gradually stealing away from the many to the few, because the few are more vigilant and consistent; it still contracts to a smaller number, till in time it centers in a single person.
Thus all the forms of governments instituted among mankind, perpetually tend towards monarchy; and power, however diffused through the whole community, is by negligence or corruption, commotion or distress, reposed at last in the chief magistrate." Johnson: Adventurer #45 (March 27, 1753)

The only cure I can see is a reset. And that's not likely to be safe or comfortable. Back up your data...

Our system is still the last best hope of Liberty. If it fails, barring that interplanetary travel, Liberty on Earth is dead.

So we must try to preserve that system and restore it to its glory. I don't know if this is possible, but it is the only reasonable chance we have. As I have pointed out, if we toss this system in a reset or in a revolution, we surely won't get anything better.

So I do not advocate lawbreaking, especially lawbreaking designed to trigger that revolution!

If the revolution occurs, it should be because the government moved so far into tyranny that other methods of restoring the Republic become impossible, making the highly improbable (revolution increasing Liberty) the only reasonable recourse.

As I have stated before, the most unmistakeable sign that we have arrived at that point will be the same one that resulted in the Shot Heard 'round the World: government marches on us in an effort to disarm us, not us marching on the government while armed.