eye95
Well-known member
I got stuff I've been putting off too! Great convo! I got a lot out of it. I hope others did too.
Props to you.
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March on Washington 07-04-2013
- Thread starter Fuller Malarkey
- Start date
I got stuff I've been putting off too! Great convo! I got a lot out of it. I hope others did too.
Props to you.
Ah, but there is the rub. The way that disarmament is being handled is through incrementalism; facilitated in part by conditioning the population against the right to keep and bear arms. When they "march" to take your guns or my guns by force, they might not be "marching" to take everyone's at the same time. It's enough that they take his or hers or theirs for now. If enough people can be disqualified by laws and others discouraged by propaganda then eventually no significant resistance to tyranny will stand in government's way.
The assault on the right to keep and bear arms could have been rebuffed without protracted efforts if the People would have refused to comply with the very first law. We would do well to remember that should we ever restore our republic.
eye95
Well-known member
And it is being restored by incrementalism. IMO, the RKBA is in better shape now than thirty years ago. We are experiencing our best successes when we focus on particular infringements and fix them. When we try to restore the Right to its full glory in one fell swoop, we fail just as spectacularly as those who try to steal the Right in a single, huge omnibus bill.
Things on the RKBA front are moving the correct direction, albeit incredibly slowly, but are still far from being even close to right. We have much work to do.
However, this march, IMO, has a greater shot at totally destroying the RKBA than it has of restoring even a bit more of it.
Stay the course. Incrementally.
I wholeheartedly agree. However, I also surmise that she will fall due to the inattention of the People in their responsibility to turn tyranny out in its infancy. This baby has grown to adolescence or more.
This quote is not directed at your particular post but is aimed at the idea that it might be "too soon" to force government to protect individual rights above all other duties.
Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. - Thomas Jefferson (Emphasis added.)
His intention was to say the opposite.
He clarified that via an edit:
I know, I know. Nevertheless, he made the point hypothetically clear.
eye95
Well-known member
eye95
Well-known member
I knew that there are rational folks out there who could see the clear meaning there.
It is possible to want to do something, but to make the rational choice not to do it! A lesson that some here could do well to learn.
We have, IMHO, gone past the tipping point for restoring our nation incrementally. Our house is fully engulfed in fire and small efforts won't save the remainder so we can rebuild.
We are losing Liberty in other areas. It's a shell game now. We may gain on RKBA but we lose on free speech, search and siezure, etc. The net result is an increase in tyranny. We are losing ground as each public school student graduates high school. Liberals are at the helm of compulsory education. Time is on tyranny's side.
But, the RKBA is not the only thing necessary to restore the republic. What about the other necessary freedoms; those that are being assaulted at an alarming rate?
Neither one of us knows which way this march could push things. I believe it is foolish in the way it was planned but I believe much more must be done than is currently. Liberty, overall, is dying a slow death. Besides, I don't have 70 years left to live and I am sick of being denied my natural rights. The government is in breach of contract and I don't think it is wise to allow it to position itself to such a huge tactical and legal advantage as it has.
New holster just came in and farm work calls... Be safe, friend.
Others should make no mistake about it - we are winning.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/
http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html
http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=101
moriar
Regular Member
My post does not matter much here... but my thoughts of this...are quite simple.
If this march was to happen, it would only end in legal disaster, if not worse in people actually getting hurt.
I would recommend that people just stay home and sit this out, or better yet, make a march on the federal courthouse in Old Town VA, not into DC.
If this march was to happen, it would only end in legal disaster, if not worse in people actually getting hurt.
I would recommend that people just stay home and sit this out, or better yet, make a march on the federal courthouse in Old Town VA, not into DC.
Wow, too many replys here to respond to them all. Eye 95, you are making some valid points however in spite of what Adam said, I really don't see this march as a revolt against, or overthrowing the government. Those words were used for shock value. If someone hadn't planned this and announced it already, if they were just presenting the idea of it, say, on AmericaChat, I might disagree with the details of the march and offer my opinions on something better.
But it's out there now, I don't think backing down and not doing this as planned would be best. Far as Mr. Kokesh goes, I don't like him only because of this smokedown thing, and some other videos I seen where he was trying out some weird new kinda drug I never heard of. I don't know the guy well enough to say what or who he exactly is, but other than the drug stuff, aside from that, I love his message. For example,
Dancing at the Jefferson Memoral. Aparently theres a law against it. I would never think to dance there, most including me never have been there, would otherwise never know about the law. I guess the law claims that dancing shows disrespect, if or not thats the case, it shows more disrespect for the founder's love of freedom to pass such a law. As he was being slammed to the ground, I thought to myself that sometime before I pass on, I should want to dance there myself. If it was not against the law, I wouldn't even want to do it.
I used to not wear a seatbelt because it was against the law not to, had for years. Breaking an unjust law is not going desolve the government. I agree with you in that we should not be looking to overthrow government. Because we would have to replace it with something, and that something could turn out to be worse. I believe it is doable, but would be a massive undertaking.
Heres a sample of what it might be like if our structure started collapsing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8rYaPfFLgo
This march is just about a law, one that the supreeme court ruled was unconstitutional and revoked, and where the police there are ignoring that rulling. You can't possibly see this as a threat to our government as a whole. Ideally, I'd like to see only a few marching with guns, and many more videotaping, maybe some scattered about with toy guns just to bring attention to the cause, and someone (a volunteer) asigned to every police person videotaping them.
BTW, it was a cop who went to the courts to have this law revoked, 5 years ago, he wanted to carry off duty.
But it's out there now, I don't think backing down and not doing this as planned would be best. Far as Mr. Kokesh goes, I don't like him only because of this smokedown thing, and some other videos I seen where he was trying out some weird new kinda drug I never heard of. I don't know the guy well enough to say what or who he exactly is, but other than the drug stuff, aside from that, I love his message. For example,
Dancing at the Jefferson Memoral. Aparently theres a law against it. I would never think to dance there, most including me never have been there, would otherwise never know about the law. I guess the law claims that dancing shows disrespect, if or not thats the case, it shows more disrespect for the founder's love of freedom to pass such a law. As he was being slammed to the ground, I thought to myself that sometime before I pass on, I should want to dance there myself. If it was not against the law, I wouldn't even want to do it.
I used to not wear a seatbelt because it was against the law not to, had for years. Breaking an unjust law is not going desolve the government. I agree with you in that we should not be looking to overthrow government. Because we would have to replace it with something, and that something could turn out to be worse. I believe it is doable, but would be a massive undertaking.
Heres a sample of what it might be like if our structure started collapsing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8rYaPfFLgo
This march is just about a law, one that the supreeme court ruled was unconstitutional and revoked, and where the police there are ignoring that rulling. You can't possibly see this as a threat to our government as a whole. Ideally, I'd like to see only a few marching with guns, and many more videotaping, maybe some scattered about with toy guns just to bring attention to the cause, and someone (a volunteer) asigned to every police person videotaping them.
BTW, it was a cop who went to the courts to have this law revoked, 5 years ago, he wanted to carry off duty.
Freedom First
Regular Member
Would you mind throwing your cites in with news? Gracias!
eye95
Well-known member
Thundar
Regular Member
If when people exercise their right to peaceably assemble to have their grievences heard are met with federal government violence is not the time to water the tree, then when is it time to water the tree?
Not advocating a violent response to federal violence, just wondering where that line in the sand is.
Is it at quartering of troops in our homes?
Is it at the targeting of our churches for government persecution?
Is it at federal trials without juries?
Is it at the suspension of Habeus Corpus?
Is it at the confiscation of firearms?
Is it at government acts of genocide?
Is it at the calling out of federal troops to "restore order"?
eye95
Well-known member
There are several lines that, when crossed, would create a WITCOHE moment. Folks illegally approaching the seat of government armed in mass and being turned back by agents of that government would not be.
The WITCOHE moment that triggered the American Revolution was precipitated by government troops marching on the American People with the intent to disarm them. It was NOT the armed American People marching on the government troops trying to provoke a confrontation.
I keep repeating that HUGE distinction, not for the sake of those who have made up their minds to participate, but because others are quietly reading this thread and not responding. They will be deciding whether to participate, what to think of the participants and critics, and what to think of OCDO. I hope to convince them not to participate, to denounce those who do, to agree with the critics, and to believe that OCDO represents, primarily, a group of law-abiding citizens.
The WITCOHE moment that triggered the American Revolution was precipitated by government troops marching on the American People with the intent to disarm them. It was NOT the armed American People marching on the government troops trying to provoke a confrontation.
I keep repeating that HUGE distinction, not for the sake of those who have made up their minds to participate, but because others are quietly reading this thread and not responding. They will be deciding whether to participate, what to think of the participants and critics, and what to think of OCDO. I hope to convince them not to participate, to denounce those who do, to agree with the critics, and to believe that OCDO represents, primarily, a group of law-abiding citizens.
Freedom First
Regular Member
I understand that. To clarify, would you provide a source for your news about Mr. Kokesh and his current situation? Thank you.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
I think anybody who is thinking about "friendly fire" for civil disobedience is crossing a big line. If they have to control themselves and they are thinking about it what happens when they can't control themselves. I never think about shooting anyone for any reason, unless it is self defense, and even then it would take my self control over my emotions to shoot, because I do not want to take a life. People who have such thoughts and throw them out there IMO are a danger to themselves and others, and we all know what the current laws say about that. Not that I agree with taking firearm rights away for perception of mental illness, but it is the law.
Freedom First
Regular Member
Um, hyperbole? Ever hear of it? "...the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally." I don't really think Eye was contemplating shooting anyone, so please set your opinions about his opinions and his staunch adherence to his personal beliefs aside when reading something like that.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Yes a lot of people have lost their firearm rights for hyperbole when it concerns public safety. This is not the first time he has made such comments. And might I remind you that others who have perpetrated violence made similar statements on the internet, Jarrod Laughner comes to mind. I seem to remember that James Holmes, and the Ft Hood shooter also had issues where they expressed them to someone. I think in this day and age for someone to make such hyperbole should throw up a caution flag at the very least.
And it is the law!
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eye95
Well-known member
Yes, I have used exaggeration from time to time, but in this case, the emotions may have been exaggerated, but proposed actions were not. Careful reading of what I said produces the FACT that I would NOT shoot him. But facts never got in the way of a certain poster.
That's OK. Every time he behaves that way, he chips away at his disappearing credibility, so it's cool.