Budget bill

[pachanga22]

Looks like the Senate is going to work on non budget bills come Tuesday!

Voter ID and Constitutional Carry on the agenda?

"With Democratic state senators still holed up in Illinois Sunday to block a vote on Walker's bill, Republicans who control the state Senate were seeking to put pressure on them by planning action on other bills for Tuesday. Without Democrats present, the Republicans have enough members to be able to hold votes on non-financial bills, but not on budget bills.

"Tuesday the Senate is going to the floor with a full calendar," said Andrew Welhouse, a spokesman for Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R-Juneau).

He declined to say which bills would be taken up."


http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116563323.html

 

[phred]

Not the way I see it.

Fine, but in this Country it isn't against the law to see it another way

Those monopolistic powers allow the unions to coerce mandatory membership of all those who are employed by the organization they are dealing with and also to extort union dues from those members. What about the rights of those who do not wish to participate? Why do they have to be subjected to such coercion?

Membership is not mandatory. Paying for the same benefits that members get is only fair. Why should leeches get the advantage of not paying?

The unions have for too long used their monopolistic powers to extort pay and benefits for their members which are completely out of line with what is going on in the real world these days. They have done this by threatening to withhold their members' services (and sometimes following through) from US, the public - not some greedy, robber-baron employer who is trying to make himself richer!

The laws that granted the monopoly to teachers' unions and public service workers' unions can just as easily be reversed through legislation. And I, for one think, they should be!

I don't know why you think that public employees do not live and work in the "real world". There are problems with every job. Nothing is perfect.

It has crossed my mind several times that non-union people are just jealous of what union people have. Well, get a job in which the employees are unionized, but don't shout out "If I can't have it, you can't have it".

Think about this. You have the option of been hired for one of two jobs. Job one is $45.000/yr, 60% employer health insurance contribution, paid vacation and holidays, grievance procedure and layoff language, and generally working conditions that are monitored by union stewards. Downside is that you need to pay $700/yr in union dues. Also, there is language that also protects the employer from you not fulfilling you contractual obligations.

Job 2 is $39,000/yr, when you are sick you don't get paid, no health insurance, and no language to protect your working conditions or any rights to discuss those working conditions. Upside - no union dues. But your employer can't say squat when you just walk off the job.

Any rational person is going to pick job one. Those that bash unions would probably like to have a union job, but because of many different reasons don't have that choice. Jealousy is overwhelming. If I can't have it, you can't have it either. Next you'll be saying that lawyers and doctors can't drive fancy cars.

Read this. You may not believe it, but at least read it.

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/6759/

It's too bad that this issue, a bill to balance the budget, has to polarize this forum which is dedicated to firearm rights. I am sure that there are some of this forum's members that are Democrat and yet they are for constitutional carry. I am sure that there are some public workers on this forum that are for constitutional carry. I am sure that Wisconsin Carry, Inc, NRA, WGO, WI-Force, etc have members from all walks of life and all different parties. Firearm rights is what brings us together. But these disrespectful comments is what drives us apart.

You laugh and ridicule people because they are exercising their "unalienable right" to express themselves and you get your underwear in bundle when they or anyone else question why you open carry. Unbelievable!

phred out!

 

[GLOCK21GB]

you can see what is on the daily calander & watch the senate live here > http://legis.wisconsin.gov/insession/senate/index.htm

 

[Snake161]

Aaron, I think that you have a good grasp of the issue. But, on the flip side, you are missing the point. My issue is public school teachers and state/tax payer commissioned professors pointing kids in the direction they want them to go, not the way they should find for themselves or through their parents. My parents tend to be conservative, but never forced me to believe what they did. They told me to be objective and look at things rationally. I decided that yes, I do not agree with much to do with the progressive movement in this country.

I think that if you work in the public sector, you should have expected something like this to happen eventually. To think otherwise, you would have to be exceptionally naive. Obviously, many of these people did not expect nor prepare for adjustments in hard times.

This reinforces this bill in itself. Obviously, these individuals believe that they are immune to changes in the economy and do not care whether private sector citizens struggle while paying for their cushy benefits. If they did, they wouldn't be skipping class, not teaching kids, and still accepting pay. Not to mention they wouldn't push their agenda on kids.

So if you know that 90% of the time you will not be reprimanded for your actions, do you still continue to do something wrong?

You couldn't tell me no, because teachers and public workers commit wrongs all the time and are lucky to even be slapped on the wrist.


So something has to change, somewhere, somehow, some way. You have to start somewhere. Raising taxes is most certainly not the answer. Entitlements are one, public sector second. Walker is just doing it in reverse.

 

[phred]

Obviously, many of these people did not expect nor prepare for adjustments in hard times.

And I know many teachers who earned much less than private sector job would pay for the education and experience they have. Did they need to be penalized because they chose a noble profession?

This reinforces this bill in itself. Obviously, these individuals believe that they are immune to changes in the economy and do not care whether private sector citizens struggle while paying for their cushy benefits. If they did, they wouldn't be skipping class, not teaching kids, and still accepting pay. Not to mention they wouldn't push their agenda on kids..

Immune to changes? This shows how little you know about the inner workings and dynamics of a school system. Teachers are constantly aware of the economy - from their own perspective and the students perspective to the funding of the programs offered by the school. And all of the teacher unions in my area have organized drives to supply food banks and elder care. They have used their "union dues" to provide hundreds of thousands of dollars in scholarships

So if you know that 90% of the time you will not be reprimanded for your actions, do you still continue to do something wrong?

You couldn't tell me no, because teachers and public workers commit wrongs all the time and are lucky to even be slapped on the wrist.

Can you give me statistics of this? In the school system that I taught, good teachers were acknowledged and bad teachers were reprimanded and/or dismissed. Mediocre teachers were shown how to improved and they did.

So something has to change, somewhere, somehow, some way. You have to start somewhere. Raising taxes is most certainly not the answer. Entitlements are one, public sector second. Walker is just doing it in reverse.

You are right. And the first thing that needs to change is the stereotyping that goes on here. I agree that everybody needs to help reduce the cost of the government. The public employees have conceded on this issue. It is the union bashing that they feel is unnecessary.

Again read this http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/6759/

The argument at stake here is actually whether to tax the corporations or tax the people. The money to run any public system must come somewhere. Maybe a 1% increase in sales tax is the answer. Since the rich spend more, they will pay in more. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. This budget proposal will affect Badger Care, Medicaid, public transportation and a whole raft of things that have surfaced to the top.

So, now to get this on topic, just as the public employees have compromised, I will be willing to pay 1% more for my next gun if it will help give a hungry child a decent meal.

 

[Nutczak]

Unions are in place to help protect the workers from greedy corporations,right?
so that would mean that the public service union is there to protect the workers from the greedy public??

Why shouldn't the taxpayers of this state not have a say in wages and benefits? We are the ones paying the wages, right?

 

[CalicoJack10]

Unions are in place to help protect the workers from greedy corporations,right?
so that would mean that the public service union is there to protect the workers from the greedy public??

Why shouldn't the taxpayers of this state not have a say in wages and benefits? We are the ones paying the wages, right?

Come on now, we don't want these teachers and what not having to admit that they are not only better than the average taxpayer, but also that money is far more important to them than anything else. lol I say we create a law that says that if at any point a union starts working against the common good, they are a terrorist organization and will be dealt with as such. Seriously, jeopardizing the already failing education system in the state by striking because they have to pay more like the rest of Wisconsin residents, that sounds like a terrorist action to me.

It causes parents to have to take off work, and possibly loose jobs that are already very difficult to find. It takes food out of the mouthes of children by denying their parents the ability to work. And that sounds to me like an attack on the public.

I don't disagree that this is a crappy situation, but it is no worse than the situation the rest of Wisconsin residents are in. And if we cant take care of our families because of this temper tantrum that is all because they don't want to have to take cuts like the rest of us then they are criminals in my eyes. If you think that it is ok to burden taxpayers so that you can live in your half million dollar house while the rest of us loose our homes, Tough $hit! Thats not the way America Works!!!!

 

[GLOCK21GB]

Come on now, we don't want these teachers and what not having to admit that they are not only better than the average taxpayer, but also that money is far more important to them than anything else. lol I say we create a law that says that if at any point a union starts working against the common good, they are a terrorist organization and will be dealt with as such. Seriously, jeopardizing the already failing education system in the state by striking because they have to pay more like the rest of Wisconsin residents, that sounds like a terrorist action to me.

It causes parents to have to take off work, and possibly loose jobs that are already very difficult to find. It takes food out of the mouthes of children by denying their parents the ability to work. And that sounds to me like an attack on the public.

I don't disagree that this is a crappy situation, but it is no worse than the situation the rest of Wisconsin residents are in. And if we cant take care of our families because of this temper tantrum that is all because they don't want to have to take cuts like the rest of us then they are criminals in my eyes. If you think that it is ok to burden taxpayers so that you can live in your half million dollar house while the rest of us loose our homes, Tough $hit! Thats not the way America Works!!!!

This ^

 

[phred]

Why shouldn't the taxpayers of this state not have a say in wages and benefits? We are the ones paying the wages, right?

I think you already do. School boards, city council aldermen, county board supervisors, and the state senate and assembly, all whom are elected by the public, approve the particular contracts for public employees.

 

[phred]

Come on now, we don't want these teachers and what not having to admit that they are not only better than the average taxpayer, but also that money is far more important to them than anything else. lol I say we create a law that says that if at any point a union starts working against the common good, they are a terrorist organization and will be dealt with as such. Seriously, jeopardizing the already failing education system in the state by striking because they have to pay more like the rest of Wisconsin residents, that sounds like a terrorist action to me.

It causes parents to have to take off work, and possibly loose jobs that are already very difficult to find. It takes food out of the mouthes of children by denying their parents the ability to work. And that sounds to me like an attack on the public.

I don't disagree that this is a crappy situation, but it is no worse than the situation the rest of Wisconsin residents are in. And if we cant take care of our families because of this temper tantrum that is all because they don't want to have to take cuts like the rest of us then they are criminals in my eyes. If you think that it is ok to burden taxpayers so that you can live in your half million dollar house while the rest of us loose our homes, Tough $hit! Thats not the way America Works!!!!

So now you think that all teachers live in half million dollar houses? Statistics, my dear man. Show me the numbers. That's just as bad as someone saying that all tattooed guys with mohawk haircuts are drugged crazed wife beaters. Why do you insist on lumping people together and attacking them? Is that what it takes to make you feel better?

I said before, that the public employees have conceded the insurance and retirement issues and you still attack. No, it's more than that isn't it? If you can't have a union represent you, then you don't want anybody else represented by a union either.

I would probably agree that unions have raised the price of all the goods and commodities we buy. But they have also contributed to better and safer working conditions, the 40 hour week, the concept of overtime and many more benefits that most employees enjoy. If you choose to be self-employed, then you choose your own working conditions. Do not deny anybody else to have a say in their working conditions.

 

[Peacekeeper]

As a public employee, my wages are paid from tax dollars. As a public employee, I still pay the same taxes as everyone in the private sector - I don't get an "employee discount" As a public employee, I take my paycheck and spend my wages in my community, at the places you work. Therefore ... public sector employees help pay private sector employee wages.

I purchase firearms and ammunition from private local buisnesses so that I have the tools to open carry.

 

[CalicoJack10]

So now you think that all teachers live in half million dollar houses? Statistics, my dear man. Show me the numbers. That's just as bad as someone saying that all tattooed guys with Mohawk haircuts are drugged crazed wife beaters. Why do you insist on lumping people together and attacking them? Is that what it takes to make you feel better?

I said before, that the public employees have conceded the insurance and retirement issues and you still attack. No, it's more than that isn't it? If you can't have a union represent you, then you don't want anybody else represented by a union either.

I would probably agree that unions have raised the price of all the goods and commodities we buy. But they have also contributed to better and safer working conditions, the 40 hour week, the concept of overtime and many more benefits that most employees enjoy. If you choose to be self-employed, then you choose your own working conditions. Do not deny anybody else to have a say in their working conditions.

Phred, come on, I would think that you would know me better than this by now. My statements are a generalization and not an all encompassing accusation. My concern is not as much for the cost of the teachers homes, as it is the fact that there is a general cost in this situation that is far more significant than the collective bargaining rights of certain workers. That is the fact that there are many homes that are affected by this situation that don't need to be affected, and that have far more severe consequences than loosing bargaining rights. I have a great deal of respect for you, and what I said was not out of anger or aggravation, it was nothing more than an observance. I have family and friends that are all affected by this situation, and I tell them the same thing, My Opinion.

As far as the Unions go (including the AFL-CIO), I have seen with my own eyes what happens behind closed doors, and I know how vicious and underhanded they can be. I have no problem with the good things that they have done, but something like this protest (In My Opinion) jeopardizes the safe and secure future of many of our children and that is far more important than anything else. I agree, unions have done good, but if it were veterans that were doing something like this (protesting an issue where the protest would cost Wisconsin residents their jobs) we would be deemed terrorists (as per the department of homeland security's domestic terror watch list criteria(the patriot act)). What is fair for one is fair for all.

When it comes to guys that have tattoos and Mohawks, we are generally thought of as drugged up outlaws, and people generally feel that if we express ourselves we are trying to hurt someone. But I would hope that you personally have seen by now that I am not that kind of person at all. I am not a part of this protest on either side, I am just expressing my opinion.

 

[phred]

Phred, come on, I would think that you would know me better than this by now. My statements are a generalization and not an all encompassing accusation. My concern is not as much for the cost of the teachers homes, as it is the fact that there is a general cost in this situation that is far more significant than the collective bargaining rights of certain workers. That is the fact that there are many homes that are affected by this situation that don't need to be affected, and that have far more severe consequences than loosing bargaining rights. I have a great deal of respect for you, and what I said was not out of anger or aggravation, it was nothing more than an observance. I have family and friends that are all affected by this situation, and I tell them the same thing, My Opinion.

As far as the Unions go (including the AFL-CIO), I have seen with my own eyes what happens behind closed doors, and I know how vicious and underhanded they can be. I have no problem with the good things that they have done, but something like this protest (In My Opinion) jeopardizes the safe and secure future of many of our children and that is far more important than anything else. I agree, unions have done good, but if it were veterans that were doing something like this (protesting an issue where the protest would cost Wisconsin residents their jobs) we would be deemed terrorists (as per the department of homeland security's domestic terror watch list criteria(the patriot act)). What is fair for one is fair for all.

When it comes to guys that have tattoos and Mohawks, we are generally thought of as drugged up outlaws, and people generally feel that if we express ourselves we are trying to hurt someone. But I would hope that you personally have seen by now that I am not that kind of person at all. I am not a part of this protest on either side, I am just expressing my opinion.

Calico, I do know you and you are a good guy. Generalization, which is stereotyping, is not respectful if it becomes spiteful. When I taught my classes, many times I had to pull in the reigns because kids got out of hand when discussing opinions and what and how people thought. That kind of stuff had to be taught in school because evidently kids did not learn it at home. This is a public forum. Communication should not be on the level of bar-talk. What is written here is forever embedded in history.

I was not necessarily accusing you, but generally the hateful tone that seems to emanate from here. A whole lot of people got pretty upset with what went on in the WAVE forum. This isn't much different. People are going make fun of you (us?) when we complain that we can't carry a firearm in a restaurant or bar or state park or whatever else we want. The may be blind to the real dangers out there, but they still have a voice.

You have a right to your opinion, as do I. But I am not going to call you or anybody else a whiner and a baby for expressing your opinions. A whole lot of people are calling the whining "THIS IS DEMOCRACY IN ACTION". Given the circumstances, I am not sure what else they could do to get their point across. If there were 20,000 people at a TEA Party Rally you would applaud them. I am not saying you can't disagree. But please, disagree respectfully.

I see both sides, I do not have an answer for all of these problems. I am taxpayer, I buy goods and services. I also like to have fire, police, and emergency services and roads taken care of. I think libraries are necessary. I think there should be some government programs that are established for the truly unfortunate. I know that government costs money and so does education. But to attack people who chose to work as a public employee, that sickens me.

 

[GLOCK21GB]

Teachers, when you factor in the FREE Health care & Pension..they are making upwards of $ 50,000.00 a year + They can start paying their end. What are they going to start teaching our kids less if they have to pay more ? Wisconsin is already like 40 out of 50 for low test scores...

 

[phred]

Teachers, when you factor in the FREE Health care & Pension..they are making upwards of $ 50,000.00 a year + They can start paying their end. What are they going to start teaching our kids less if they have to pay more ? Wisconsin is already like 40 out of 50 for low test scores...

40 out of 50 for low test scores? Citation please

So, $50K per year is the magic compensation that you have deemed appropriate, no matter what the educational degree or level of experience.

Are you not hearing what public employees have been saying for the last several days? THEY HAVE AGREED TO THE RETIREMENT AND HEALTH INSURANCE CHANGES.

 

[1FASTC4]

40 out of 50 for low test scores? Citation please

So, $50K per year is the magic compensation that you have deemed appropriate, no matter what the educational degree or level of experience.

Are you not hearing what public employees have been saying for the last several days? THEY HAVE AGREED TO THE RETIREMENT AND HEALTH INSURANCE CHANGES.

But they want to keep collective bargaining. So the next time they "negotiate" salaries with the govt via collective bargaining, what's to stop them from holding our feet to the fire and demanding a pay increase to offset their retirement and health insurance changes?

 

[phred]

But they want to keep collective bargaining. So the next time they "negotiate" salaries with the govt via collective bargaining, what's to stop them from holding our feet to the fire and demanding a pay increase to offset their retirement and health insurance changes?

Because the state has also imposed limits on the "negotiated" salaries as well as revenue caps. There won't be any money for those increases that you are afraid of.

 

[1FASTC4]

Because the state has also imposed limits on the "negotiated" salaries as well as revenue caps. .

No they haven't. That's on the bill that cannot be voted on because the Dem senators are crying sour grapes and refuse to do their job.

There's no limits currently in place.

 

[oak1971]

There are limits, used to called QEO or something like that.

 

[1FASTC4]

There are limits, used to called QEO or something like that.

hmm can you show me where I could see this?