Forum is kind of a turn off...

[WalkingWolf]

Nope as in I have no need to be a **** to someone on the internet just for kicks and giggles.

Considering your accusations, I disagree.

 

[davidmcbeth]

Seems like there's a lot of smart aleks, elitists and cop haters in the forums. Quite a turn off tbh. While there's a ton of good, smart people on here, the amount of, well, a-holes is quite frustrating And lately I've been turning to other forums for information and discussions. I mean I see some legit questions on here and discussions only to be ruined by them. Just kind of feel like of you don't have anything nice to say ore I'd doesn't pertain to the question or conversation, don't comment especially if you know it might make someone angry or annoyed. The elitists on here are really bad. Anyone else feel this way?

I agree. But you take the good, you take the bad ... and there you have it--the facts of life.

IMO this forum is too heavily moderated....oh well.

You may start your own forum...perhaps team up with eye95, he likes civility above all else. [if he's still around his civility web page is gone perhaps?]

 

[Grapeshot]

Originally Posted by ericcris10sen

Seems like there's a lot of smart aleks, elitists and cop haters in the forums. Quite a turn off tbh. While there's a ton of good, smart people on here, the amount of, well, a-holes is quite frustrating And lately I've been turning to other forums for information and discussions. I mean I see some legit questions on here and discussions only to be ruined by them. Just kind of feel like of you don't have anything nice to say ore I'd doesn't pertain to the question or conversation, don't comment especially if you know it might make someone angry or annoyed. The elitists on here are really bad. Anyone else feel this way?

I agree. But you take the good, you take the bad ... and there you have it--the facts of life.

IMO this forum is too heavily moderated....oh well.

You may start your own forum...perhaps team up with eye95, he likes civility above all else. [if he's still around his civility web page is gone perhaps?]

Me thinks that you doth contradict yourself.

Sort of a pot vs kettle situation too, I'd say.

Eye95 did like to rant but didn't like the rules. He demanded his account be permanently deleted. A rare exception was made - it was.

 

[Freedom1Man]

I would say that there are a few rather than a lot. You do have the option of adding them to your ignore list.

If something doesn't pertain to a particular thread, it is deemed off topic and don't feed trolls, please.

Serious breaches of Forum Rules or decorum WILL be addressed.

In my not so humble opinion, there is no other forum that can hold a candle to OCDO - still there will always be room for improvement.

This is the only forum I have been to where citations are part of the rules for posting. So that in and of itself make this forum great.
Besides, like Grapeshot pointed out there is an ignore feature. I have used it in the past but, I noticed that even the bad vines produce good fruit at times.

OP I believe your post is an insult to the members of this board. AFAIK there are no haters here, or very few, if any. There are people here who are very vested in the constitution, and rights. Not sure what you mean by elitist, but I have not seen what you have seen, and I have gone a round with almost everybody at one time or another.

If liberty is disturbing, or elitist to you then this may not be the site for you, IMO.

As far as smart alecs, yea they are on every site, I am sometimes one of them, we here call it humor, or sarcasm.

Maybe I am not thin skinned like some people, so I agree with WW on this.

I have gone rounds with what seems like many of the people on here and that is just part of life. There are very few on here that bother me in person, that will happen anywhere, and most of the ones I have met in person at really good people.

I suspect that I could even get along with WW in person even if we often don't agree on things.

 

[Tess]

I don't find this forum near as welcoming as when I first joined, but we're all adults who have the option to read or not read, post or not post, and subscribe or unsubscribe.

 

[marshaul]

The forum's less active than it was in its heyday, but if the lack of constant police worship is a "turn off", I recommend any other gun forum.

ETA: Which is to say nothing of your welcome here (you are, of course), merely that I personally like having somewhere in the "gun community" to go where that attitude isn't the norm. Not every gun owner is absolutely uncritical of modern policing from a legal, moral, or practical perspective. And 75% of other gun sites already are echo chambers for those who are absolutely uncritical.

What you see as "cop-haters" are often individuals who have learned the hard way that policing, in many parts of the US, is a machine designed to generate criminal convictions – a machine which frequently views hapless but harmless gun owners as low-hanging fruit.

Moreover, because of this difference in attitude, I think most gun forums gloss over the risks armed citizens take interacting with police. Here, I think, one finds a more balanced appraisal of the situation. There are, after all, historically no shortage of "cop apologists" here to counter the "haters".

 

[solus]

I don't find this forum near as welcoming as when I first joined, but we're all adults who have the option to read or not read, post or not post, and subscribe or unsubscribe.

ok tess, gather around for a group hug...come on don't be shy, tho you must behave while in the group hug...:uhoh:

(found this just for you tess... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22Wa20gWee4 enjoy)

ipse

 

[davidmcbeth]

<snip>

Eye95 did like to rant but didn't like the rules. He demanded his account be permanently deleted. A rare exception was made - it was.

That was very civil of you. :uhoh::banana::banana:

 

[Logan 5]

Seems like there's a lot of smart aleks, elitists and cop haters in the forums.

Welcome to the World Wide Web.

Quite a turn off tbh.

Then...why return? Or you could just learn to accept it as it is.

While there's a ton of good, smart people on here, the amount of, well, a-holes is quite frustrating

Yeah, and we soon tire of the nuisance some people are. But you soon get used to a few of them. Especially Solus and McBeth. They’re kinda like toe jam.

Just kind of feel like of you...don't comment especially if you know it might make someone angry or annoyed.

...and you posted anyway...?

The elitists on here are really bad. Anyone else feel this way?

Yeah, but we all get used to Grapeshot. :monkey

 

[Grapeshot]

--snipped--
.......we all get used to Grapeshot. :monkey

I get used, too.

 

[utbagpiper]

Seems like there's a lot of smart aleks, elitists and cop haters in the forums. Quite a turn off tbh. While there's a ton of good, smart people on here, the amount of, well, a-holes is quite frustrating And lately I've been turning to other forums for information and discussions. I mean I see some legit questions on here and discussions only to be ruined by them. Just kind of feel like of you don't have anything nice to say ore I'd doesn't pertain to the question or conversation, don't comment especially if you know it might make someone angry or annoyed. The elitists on here are really bad. Anyone else feel this way?

You've hit things pretty well, I'm afraid.

At one time, as packing dot org disappeared, the forum was very active, with a lot of different folks posting. Discussion was vigorous, but civil. Personal insults were less frequent. The various "Nazis", trolls, provocateurs, and self important jerks who seem to exist only to find some non material error in others' posts or demonstrate their own superiority showed up a lot less often, and were pretty universally shunned when they did rare their trollish little heads. Post formatting was much more readable on average (the days before smart phones with itty-bitty keyboards), and discussions/debates were a little more in depth. New folks were warmly welcomed and only run off after they demonstrated they were trolls.

Most importantly, at one time, the forum was solidly and overwhelmingly committed to OC specifically and to RKBA generally. Social forum discussions about non-gun issues were common and enjoyable, but not the bulk of the traffic. There was a fair bit of traffic on coordinating for elections, or discussing which legislation to advance and how best to do so. The legal info on the state pages was top notch and kept up to date with the help of a group of "State Researchers" who fed info to one of the mods.

While the main purpose of the forum is in its name, the members used to be very open to concealed carry as well.

This have changed. New members are frequently given not just a cold shoulder, but an overtly hostile reception by a few who seem to think being a jerk is good sport or seem to have something to prove. Some (as we see here), justify incivility by claiming it is humor or sarcasm.

We have several, very vocal members who seem far less interested in RKBA or OC than they are in proselyting libertarian anarchy. In fact, I suspect some really only care about RKBA to the extent they think gun nuts are likely to be receptive to their messages on anarchy. The whole think sometimes comes off as cop bashing. A fair number of threads actually wind up locked or deleted because a few really want another cop watch forum. Some brush as closely as they can against forum rules prohibiting advocating for violation of laws. Others get rather nasty (in their own special ways) toward any who actually dare disagree with their unworkable political/social theories of how to create utopia.

Any suggestion that the forum members might do something more than just bang out angry posts at each other will result in some jack wagon posting yet another link to a janet Jackson video for "What have you done for me lately."

And of course, some of the worst offenders have responded to your OP quite defensively, like so many hit birds fluttering.

The State legal information is woefully and dangerous out of date. It certainly isn't reliable as I know of material errors in the two States I've checked recently. There is almost no organized effort anymore by the forum admins to gather updated info or to get the state pages corrected. You will notice that most requests for legal data (that don't get met with derision) will result in links to pages off the forum. At one time, a redirect to the State pages of the forum was all that was needed in almost all cases of someone looking to figure out what was legal and what wasn't as far as OC or carrying in general goes.

We have a small, but very vocal group who are overtly hostile to concealed carry. Pejoratives like P2P (pay to play) or P4P (pay for permits) get tossed around as the OCDO version of progressives calling anyone who disagrees with them a "bigot". At least one member openly celebrates any legal setbacks for concealed carry. (I think the 2A is all the permit we should need. But practical politics is the art of the possible, not the theory of the perfect.)

Many members misunderstand or deliberately abuse the forum rules regarding citations. Citations are required for claims as to law. Some members have taken to demanding cites for every statement made or personal observation offered. They wield such demands as an attempt to shut down discussion they don't like, or (as in other cases) try to prove some non material error. ("Gee, it turns out the national population isn't exactly 320 million it is...what does it matter?")

The ignore list helps with the worst of the worst. But the reality is, the forum isn't what it once was and probably never again will be. It is a shame because it could be a great resource rather than merely a source of recreation. But current (active) membership seems to have little interest in that. Those who protest the loudest, and quite likely the worst offenders. They like what they have created, but don't care to own it for what it is.

I've decided to check in occasionally to see if there is anything from across the nation I haven't seen elsewhere. Sometimes a post or two is fun. But I'm finding my local forum to be a better place to discuss local issues free from the semi-insane or illiterate ramblings of the trolls here. It is also much better for discussion as we tend to know each other in person and that tends to maintain a better level of discourse than we see too often here. Your location is Hurricane Utah ("Are you from Dixie?"). UtahConcealedCarry.com is not super active, but is great for Utah and regional information and discussion. Some really great guys are active there. No hostility there to legal open carry either.

Again, this is all unfortunate as a nationwide list has such potential, and used to be so much more. But what is, is.


Charles

 

[color of law]

We have come a long way baby. That is, in the last ten years. Yes, there are some states that are just hellholes, but for the most part most battles are local skirmishes. Getting local governments to comply with state law.

Because of our successes less participation will naturally occur. Unfortunately that breeds complacency, giving the progressives the opportunity to swoop in and destroy everything we have accomplished. This is just natural progression. As the saying goes: "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

"Seems like there's a lot of smart aleks, elitists and cop haters in the forums." No more than when this forum started. They were just lost in the crowd.

 

[Grapeshot]

We have almost 40,000 user/registrants now. Most are good honest, productive people - a few not so much.

By and large, this forum has been extremely good at targeting the goals intended and IMHO we owe it to the membership.

I walk in the land of giants......I really do mean that.

 

[color of law]

We have almost 40,000 user/registrants now. Most are good honest, productive people - a few not so much.

By and large, this forum has been extremely good at targeting the goals intended and IMHO we owe it to the membership.

I walk in the land of giants......I really do mean that.

I'm 5' 7" - boy that makes me feel good......

 

[davidmcbeth]

We have almost 40,000 user/registrants now. Most are good honest, productive people - a few not so much.

By and large, this forum has been extremely good at targeting the goals intended and IMHO we owe it to the membership.

I walk in the land of giants......I really do mean that.

How many "inactive" (1 yr no posts/visit)?

 

[Grapeshot]

We have almost 40,000 user/registrants now. Most are good honest, productive people - a few not so much.

By and large, this forum has been extremely good at targeting the goals intended and IMHO we owe it to the membership.

I walk in the land of giants......I really do mean that.

How many "inactive" (1 yr no posts/visit)?

The ratio of active (log-ins) vs passive reading is not what you suggest. Non-registered/non-recorded reads far exceed the number of log-ins.

You would seem to imply that words from the past have less value and that only those swinging for the fences can score. I submit that is not the case.

 

[Firearms Iinstuctor]

I have found that every forum has a certain style and content.

I don't visit the ones I don't like.

Makes life a lot easier.

 

[Tess]

You've hit things pretty well, I'm afraid.

At one time, as packing dot org disappeared, the forum was very active, with a lot of different folks posting. Discussion was vigorous, but civil. Personal insults were less frequent. The various "Nazis", trolls, provocateurs, and self important jerks who seem to exist only to find some non material error in others' posts or demonstrate their own superiority showed up a lot less often, and were pretty universally shunned when they did rare their trollish little heads. Post formatting was much more readable on average (the days before smart phones with itty-bitty keyboards), and discussions/debates were a little more in depth. New folks were warmly welcomed and only run off after they demonstrated they were trolls.

Most importantly, at one time, the forum was solidly and overwhelmingly committed to OC specifically and to RKBA generally. Social forum discussions about non-gun issues were common and enjoyable, but not the bulk of the traffic. There was a fair bit of traffic on coordinating for elections, or discussing which legislation to advance and how best to do so. The legal info on the state pages was top notch and kept up to date with the help of a group of "State Researchers" who fed info to one of the mods.

While the main purpose of the forum is in its name, the members used to be very open to concealed carry as well.

This have changed. New members are frequently given not just a cold shoulder, but an overtly hostile reception by a few who seem to think being a jerk is good sport or seem to have something to prove. Some (as we see here), justify incivility by claiming it is humor or sarcasm.

We have several, very vocal members who seem far less interested in RKBA or OC than they are in proselyting libertarian anarchy. In fact, I suspect some really only care about RKBA to the extent they think gun nuts are likely to be receptive to their messages on anarchy. The whole think sometimes comes off as cop bashing. A fair number of threads actually wind up locked or deleted because a few really want another cop watch forum. Some brush as closely as they can against forum rules prohibiting advocating for violation of laws. Others get rather nasty (in their own special ways) toward any who actually dare disagree with their unworkable political/social theories of how to create utopia.

Any suggestion that the forum members might do something more than just bang out angry posts at each other will result in some jack wagon posting yet another link to a janet Jackson video for "What have you done for me lately."

And of course, some of the worst offenders have responded to your OP quite defensively, like so many hit birds fluttering.

The State legal information is woefully and dangerous out of date. It certainly isn't reliable as I know of material errors in the two States I've checked recently. There is almost no organized effort anymore by the forum admins to gather updated info or to get the state pages corrected. You will notice that most requests for legal data (that don't get met with derision) will result in links to pages off the forum. At one time, a redirect to the State pages of the forum was all that was needed in almost all cases of someone looking to figure out what was legal and what wasn't as far as OC or carrying in general goes.

We have a small, but very vocal group who are overtly hostile to concealed carry. Pejoratives like P2P (pay to play) or P4P (pay for permits) get tossed around as the OCDO version of progressives calling anyone who disagrees with them a "bigot". At least one member openly celebrates any legal setbacks for concealed carry. (I think the 2A is all the permit we should need. But practical politics is the art of the possible, not the theory of the perfect.)

Many members misunderstand or deliberately abuse the forum rules regarding citations. Citations are required for claims as to law. Some members have taken to demanding cites for every statement made or personal observation offered. They wield such demands as an attempt to shut down discussion they don't like, or (as in other cases) try to prove some non material error. ("Gee, it turns out the national population isn't exactly 320 million it is...what does it matter?")

The ignore list helps with the worst of the worst. But the reality is, the forum isn't what it once was and probably never again will be. It is a shame because it could be a great resource rather than merely a source of recreation. But current (active) membership seems to have little interest in that. Those who protest the loudest, and quite likely the worst offenders. They like what they have created, but don't care to own it for what it is.

I've decided to check in occasionally to see if there is anything from across the nation I haven't seen elsewhere. Sometimes a post or two is fun. But I'm finding my local forum to be a better place to discuss local issues free from the semi-insane or illiterate ramblings of the trolls here. It is also much better for discussion as we tend to know each other in person and that tends to maintain a better level of discourse than we see too often here. Your location is Hurricane Utah ("Are you from Dixie?"). UtahConcealedCarry.com is not super active, but is great for Utah and regional information and discussion. Some really great guys are active there. No hostility there to legal open carry either.

Again, this is all unfortunate as a nationwide list has such potential, and used to be so much more. But what is, is.


Charles

Thank you for taking the time to articulate this as well as you did. I'm certain it took a lot of thought, and I appreciate it. In my opinion, you've hit the nail on the head.

 

[utbagpiper]

We have come a long way baby. That is, in the last ten years. Yes, there are some states that are just hellholes, but for the most part most battles are local skirmishes. Getting local governments to comply with state law.

Because of our successes less participation will naturally occur. .....

That is one way to look at it.

Here is another way. We probably have more people carrying guns, in more States, on a regular basis than at any other time in the last 100 years.

In 2001, Utah had 44,173 carry permits or about 2% of our adult population. As of the end of 3rd quarter 2016, we have 674,345 permits valid with over 440k of those issued to non-Utah-residents. Fully 10% of our adult population now has a permit to carry: a five times increase over the last 15 years. With permit-free car carry, and effective permit-free OC outside cities, we might surmise that there are additional folks who carry but haven't bothered to get a permit.

The nation started 2003 with 1 State (Vermont) that had constitutional/permit-free carry. Today, there are a 11 to 15 States with some form of permit-free carry depending on what one counts as qualifying as "permit free carry".

An internet search for "gun sales record breaking year" will return results suggesting that several of the last 10 years have seen record breaking gun sales.

Recognition and reciprocity among States for each others' carry permits might well be at an all time high.

And yet, laws are more complex with severe penalties even for unintentional, non-violent, technical violations as we've seen in the case of reports of folks getting arrested for crossing the border into New Jersey with a gun, or asking where to store their gun at NYC landmarks.

Finally, it appears that Donald Trump's successful campaign (along with Obama's two successful campaigns) relied heavily on internet communications. Virtually everyone who has come of age in the last 10 years uses the internet and social media for news, information, and recreation.

So with more people carrying, with more of them carrying across State lines, with older folks passing on and the younger, internet savvy generation coming of age, we might well expect there to be a higher demand than ever for accurate data on laws and culture, insights and hints on carrying techniques and equipment, and discussions on how best to build on success (or plan for horrible election results) and to improve on (or defend) the gains we've made.

That is not what I perceive has happened here at OCDO the last few years.

"Seems like there's a lot of smart aleks, elitists and cop haters in the forums." No more than when this forum started. They were just lost in the crowd.

The signal-to-noise ratio is degraded either by an increase in noise or a decrease in signal.

More significantly we have to ask which group is setting the overall culture and tone for a given group. If a dozen malcontents represent a tiny minority of posters and posts, they are just noise. But if those same dozen problem children become a majority or even significant plurality, they begin to drive culture. The self-appointed not-so-welcoming committee has certainly run off many a new member before we ever get 10 posts out of the newbie. No doubt, a couple of trolls were run off.

But we have to ask how many law abiding gun owners who would have made significant contributions were turned off and run off in their first few posts. How many others have simply given up and left? Notice how few "State Researchers" we have posting these days.

It seems the forum is now more accepting of anti-gun progressive trolls and agent-provocateurs who encourage violation of laws (forum rules to the contrary notwithstanding) than it is of a new guy asking a question that some self-appointed guardian of the door thinks is "fishy". Heaven help the poor new guy who commits what someone thinks is a breach of forum etiquette. Or, put another way, real trolls now seem to relish the environment here while decent, law abiding gun owners are more likely to be run off by the degraded forum mores.

We have almost 40,000 user/registrants now. Most are good honest, productive people - a few not so much.

So that means there are about 39,900 people who took the time to register over the past 10 years who have had nothing to post in the last 3 months, 6 months, 12 months+? Things are worse than I thought. There are only two reasons to register and login:

1-To post or PM something.
2-To enable the ignore list to avoid seeing certain other posters' tripe.

Everything else on the forum/site is available without registering at all.

Let us remember, accounts never expire and so far as I'm aware, only 1 account has ever been deleted.

So that is a lot of people who know of the forum, might even browse the site, but are not actively participating.

Rather than simply declaring that all is well, there are some things that might warrant those who care to ask, "Why are so many not participating?"

By and large, this forum has been extremely good at targeting the goals intended ...

My question is what are those goals and by what metrics can we claim that the forum or site has played a material role in advancing those goals.

If the goal is just click bait for ads and revenue, I'm sure success is grand.

If the goal is for a few good ol' boys to coordinate a quarterly OC dinner in the south-east portion of the nation (Virginia/Carolinas), there is also evidence of fine success.

Several folks no doubt get a lot of recreational value as they engage in various forms of bullying.

But where is the evidence that the site is actually helping to elect good candidates at the local or State level across the nation? Or to share information on model legislation and how to best advance from where a State/community currently is to the next level? When was the last time that State laws were updated to match the reality of what is actually on the books after several years of legislative changes? Utah's page is woefully out of date and my submissions with updates and corrections get no response. Virginia's page fails to mention local preemption of threaded barrels. There is a nice little criminal record waiting for the unsuspecting, otherwise lawful carrier.

Things are not well on the forum. But it seems to be what the most prolific forum members want and what the admins tolerate. So I don't foresee any changes. Kind of shame IMO as I've been around long enough (just over 10 years now) to have personally seen and participated in the forum when it was much more, and much better.

Charles

 

[WalkingWolf]

To be a smart backside

This site has a virtual internet door. USE IT!

Otherwise it is one of the best second amendment sites on the web, with a very overworked but professional fair moderator.

Don't let the door hit you in the backside.

IMO this site will attract many more without the candy whiny snowflakes that all they do is complain.